The Refugee Crisis

[josephpalazzo]

I like Nicola, she's a clever leader.

But heres the thing, she's right that our countries are welcoming in giving refuge to immigrants and migrants, she's right about how open we are here.
But the problem is in what she mentioned about nicholas winton, he was a man who helped people flee from the nazi conflict decades ago. The problem is that back then, not only did we have people like him saving lives from a war torn land, but we were also fighting against the cause of these people fleeing, england and america were fighting against the nazis.

Unless the same action is taken against the cause of these migrants fleeing there lands now, attacking the groups causing this crisis, then no amount of good graces for helping refugees will really solve the problem, it will just make life harder for all.

No amount of leaders blaming each other for the death of children washed up on beaches will change it, because it will keep happening until the problem is dealt with at the source, like how it happened with the nazi occupation long ago.

I hear you but Syria is an entire different thing than Germany was at the end of WW2. It had a literate population with a more or less homogeneous cultural identity. Not so with Syria, which is profoundly divided along cultural/ethnic/religious/tribal lines. If you take out Assad, who do you replace him with? We know what happened in Iraq when Saddam was taken out - the result has been disastrous. Secondly, there is Russia, a strong supporter of Assad. I don't think the West can go in there without the approval and support of Russia. The risk of confrontation with Russia that could degenerate into an all-time war is far too great. The US in particular has basically taken the position to let the war resolved itself on its own, trying at the same time to contain it so it doesn't spread more than it has.

[Solitary]

Isn't selfish desire the real problem here with so much suffering, like Buddha said? 

[Munch]

Not quite munch.
The refugees from Germany came before the second world war started, and the Daily mail was still quite pro Hitler there was a great deal of resistance to the refugees then, but national history being what it is, the British like Americans and everyone else in the world only tend tell stories about the good bits of their history so we all can say we were nice guys.

From my point of view our politicians are not only not going to get a solution, but they are a good part of the problem.

Meanwhile we are in an alliance which is bombing christians and atheists along with muslims now.

oh I have no doubt about that, the mail and certain bias historians love to paint history in such a way.

Big words of current politicians isn't going to change the current crisis, which is why I look at anything they say as a wet paper bag.

Just makes me wonder where the break is going to happen, because something will break, either civil unrest in europe, the proclamation of war (more war), or another huge recession, perhaps breaking the European union.

[Munch]

I hear you but Syria is an entire different thing than Germany was at the end of WW2. It had a literate population with a more or less homogeneous cultural identity. Not so with Syria, which is profoundly divided along cultural/ethnic/religious/tribal lines. If you take out Assad, who do you replace him with? We know what happened in Iraq when Saddam was taken out - the result has been disastrous. Secondly, there is Russia, a strong supporter of Assad. I don't think the West can go in there without the approval and support of Russia. The risk of confrontation with Russia that could degenerate into an all-time war is far too great. The US in particular has basically taken the position to let the war resolved itself on its own, trying at the same time to contain it so it doesn't spread more than it has.

true, as said, german and the nazi occupation was easy to deal with because it was something on the surface. What is happening with syria and other similar countries is so deeply intertwined in the culture is would be hard to tackle. What is more needed is stability and containing it. As you said, Saddam was placed there by the US, and did infact bring a level of stability, until the US decided they didn't like the idea of there being a power shift and killed him (as well as all the lovely oil bush wanted).

Simply put, it served as an example that stability can happen, but at a cost.

[jonb]

Imposing dictators, might seem to bring stability, but under surface I think it only increases resentment so the problems that follow become worse.
The British backed the Shah of Iran to destroy the democratic government of Iran, the Shah then lost power to a radical Islamic revolution. It had to be radical because only radicals are capable of organising and resisting the power of a Tyrant.
I think it is this strategy of imposing tyrants that has lead to the radicalism.

[Munch]

Imposing dictators, might seem to bring stability, but under surface I think it only increases resentment so the problems that follow become worse.
The British backed the Shah of Iran to destroy the democratic government of Iran, the Shah then lost power to a radical Islamic revolution. It had to be radical because only radicals are capable of organising and resisting the power of a Tyrant.
I think it is this strategy of imposing tyrants that has lead to the radicalism.

So the choices atm are either a radical regime, or tyrannical one.

[josephpalazzo]

That's why the ME is a shit-hole. A dictator offends our democratic principles, but if you let the people vote, they vote for parties that are anti-democratic: Egypt voting for the Muslim Brotherhood, Gaza voting for Hezbollah. It's a no-win situation.

[Baruch]

Everything in the ME prior to 1990 was all about the Cold War.  Everything in the ME prior to 1945 was all about English/French imperialism.  We are in a new era post 1990 ... apples and oranges.  But this is a region with a long memory, that is always fighting the last war, which means multiple last wars going back 1000 years.  This means that the secular Israelis are still fighting the Russian Revolution (Bundists were the original migrants).  And the Palestinians are fighting WW I and WW II ... one for independence from Turkey (they don't look forward to the return of the Ottomans) ... and the other as allies of Adolph Hitler.  Smart people would just stay away ... except for the damn oil.  This is why Cyprus, Turkey and Greece must be destroyed also, because it is believed that they have potential natural gas deposits ... it isn't just about a pipeline, but also how additional reserves can be brought on-line in the regions the pipeline passes thru.

It is this current destruction in Cyprus, Turkey and Greece ... that has opened a much bigger door into Germany etc.  As I see it, people like Zbignew are insane, they hate Russia (as Poles with a long history) so much, that they will sacrifice on-shore W Europe to destroy Russia ... just as the US would have sacrificed the same in a Nato/Warsaw Pact war.  The goal of the NWO is divide and conquer ... and they need to break up the Russian Republic to do that.

[josephpalazzo]

True that the West gets involved because of the oil - otherwise, it wouldn't care less. But unless people decide not to fly anymore ( over one hundred thousands flights every single day of the year), we need the frigging oil, and so we are tied to the ME in a most unsavory way.

[Baruch]

I am a realist, but not a pessimist.  History is mostly about the production of corpses, some of which we celebrate more than others (who is in Grant's tomb?).  But couples marry, babies are born, children are raised ... in spite of that (and no, I don't oppose gay couples).  I suspect things will continue one way or another, in spite of how big a mess we see today.  And maybe in spite of my aging cynicism, things post-Cold War are a little better than during the Cold War.

[josephpalazzo]

You see a mess, others see opportunities.

[Baruch]

Sharks always see opportunities.  Don't loose your bikini while swimming off shore ;-(

[jonb]

That's why the ME is a shit-hole. A dictator offends our democratic principles, but if you let the people vote, they vote for parties that are anti-democratic: Egypt voting for the Muslim Brotherhood, Gaza voting for Hezbollah. It's a no-win situation.

Do you honestly think if the fighting ended tomorrow that all these people should immediately become Californian surfing dudes?
The Tyrannies we have imposed are not like the mild soviet dictatorships that sent people to gulags and if they really didn't like you, some of your family as well. These Tyrannies don't just kill those they don't like and their families but bomb and gas whole towns.
Do you think shell shock/post traumatic syndrome only happens to westerners, that the children that have been through this won't be waking up in the middle of the night for years to come screaming?

Drive your car be happy you cant help, because if you gave those people a bit of freedom they might be angry and do some things you don't like, its much better to leave things as they are and have



nice cheep gas.

[Munch]

Sharks always see opportunities.  Don't loose your bikini while swimming off shore ;-(

I know, those naughty beach sharks are always on the lookout.

[Munch]

On a more serious note, this to me was a brilliant presentation of the problem we're facing, and the ignorance of current politicians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE