The Refugee Crisis

[Munch]

Let's not forget that the war in Syria is caused by ISLAM, where Muslims are killing Muslims.
And Christians, Kurds, Yadizis, or anyone happens to be in the firing line.

It is a civil war, or rather a sectarian war Shia vs Sunni.

The misery and death is self inflicted. Because of ISLAM.

Someone had to say it.

Yep. which is why when I see clueless fuckers like Ben Affleck talk, the wooly minded kind of asshole who thinks talking about a fucked up religion like islam is the same as calling all brown people savages, it makes me want to knee the fucker in the balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

Religions are the route of so many problems in the world, islam being the best example of it, and I feel when that problem begins to spread out from the places that faith is contained in, to the point of causing mass immigration because of the wars, violence and shit way of life, its time to stop being so wooly minded about it.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-al-jazeera-arabic-poll-respondents-support-isis/

In a recent survey conducted by AlJazeera.net, the website for the Al Jazeera Arabic television channel, respondents overwhelmingly support the Islamic State terrorist group, with 81% voting “YES” on whether they approved of ISIS’s conquests in the region.

The poll, which asked in Arabic, “Do you support the organizing victories of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS)?” has generated over 38,000 responses thus far, with only 19% of respondents voting “NO” to supporting ISIS.

The sad thing is, in killing saddam hussein, it turned out a worse beast as a result, not just one individual but an idea, which is far worse then one dictator controlling people. Its true Isis began before his execution, but his death looked like it gave power to pushing Isis into the mainstream from his supporters.

[Green Bottle]

This is a topic thats causing strong emotional responses i see, and i agree with a lot of what i've seen posted, and disagree with some of it also.

Thanks

Yes, the danger is that the far right might use this to score points and turn this into political leverage. I'm hoping that won't happen. I mean, after WW2,  there were millions of refugees, yet, Europe managed to get back on its feet. No reason to believe otherwise. It will be chaotic, but people are resilient.

Yes Joseph you have a point but WW11 ended, can you see the end of the so called  ''War on Terror ?

Would you like this in your streets?

Well, you will have it anyway.  Sooner than you think.

I personally think of farage as a racist bigot so nuthing much he says interests me...

Right then, anyways...

One disgusting trend I have noticed lately is to refer to them as "migrants" as a way to soften the emotional blow; like that is what the world needs, more cynicism and heartlessness.

It's one thing to say "500 people died as their boat capsized". That sounds terrible.
It's one thing to say "500 refugees died as their boat capsized" ... now it sounds truly terrible, because they are trying to escape a terrible situation!

But then say, "500 migrants died as their boat capsized"... suddenly it doesn't feel so bad. Migrants? Those are the people who come here and steal our jobs, refuse to speak English (German/Italian/French, whatever), who are criminals and rapists!

The fact that some one actually thought, "Yeah, lets make this huge human rights issue a bit more trivial, we don't want people to take it TOO seriously now..." is mindblowing to me.

David cameron actually referred to these poor people as a ''Swarm of Migrants the other week, and now after the photo of the dead child on the beach appeared he's starting to sound a bit more sympathetic about it all, i dont believe him for a minute.

It is a scary scene. However Farage is someone whos used any tactic he can for fear-mongering, so I don't take him seriously in whatever he tries to do. The issue, as said, will either be having europe attacking the source of the problem, namely the reason why these people are flooding to europe, the source of there own countries instability and europes open door policy, or there will be cival unrest happening here that the law won't be able to put a stop to.
Regardless of whatever the truth might be, the media will make the migrant crisis such an issue that people in europe will start attacking migrants and refugees.

This...

[jonb]

pr126

There are also very close fits to world poverty and authoritarian dictatorships.

A feature of religion is that is used as a flag often people use religion as a gathering point to fight against other factors.
Think of Irish nationalism and Ulstermen.

I would say that there is a particular problem with the abrahamic religions in that they have a strong tradition of black and white thinking- 'I am right so therefore you are the devil' , and in that Islamic people tend to be the least educated of the Abrahamic traditions we see that feature most strongly represented, but that is not to say Islam is the only cause. To say that Islam is the only cause is to use the same thinking as the Islamists themselves and I hope most atheists would look at problems with more intelligent visions than the black and white idiocy that comes from those primitive religions.

[peacewithoutgod]

You've put a lot of issues in this post, which I will not attempt to address all of them. But let me make a few points.

First, it's a humanitarian crisis. We should look at these refugees as human beings, and treat them as such, regardless of their ethnicity or their religious beliefs. Second, the whole world should pitch in, not just the European countries which are immediately affected, whether in taking more refugees, or give support by supplying material or money. Thirdly, the whole world can't shrug this off by ignoring the causes of this crisis - particularly the war in Syria. 

Now what happens in the aftermath, which seems to be your concern: that these refugees are mainly Muslims, and they will bring their religion with them. Sure, that is a concern. But if Europeans have done a poor job in dealing with this problem, that is their own doing. Lets put it this way: if you believe your values are better than theirs, they will prevail. For instance, freedom of expression is more important than the "right that your religion should not be attacked", human rights are more important than "your right to Sharia Law".  Also, in many European countries, the plight of economic woes amongst the Muslim population has been far too far ignored, giving these people little to lose but to resent and oppose the society that initially welcomed them. And so on, the problems are too many, and vary from country to country. But I see these as separate issues from the current crisis.

Realistically, how would this be their own doing, beyond allowing in people who aren't just culturally different, but philosophically opposed to Western culture? Once their in, there's really no way of "dealing with this problem" short of actions which would offend the very tenets of Western philosophy. Government needs to keep it's hands off religion anyway, and it must keep itself clean of intruding Muslim fingers (as with any rellgion which cannot keep its activities private), and the first time it has to shut the gate on tenacious Muslim knuckles there's going to be noise, wasteful distraction from more deserving issues, fear-mongering, hate-mongering, and ultimately violence.

[stromboli]

https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/frontpage-magazine-what-we-are-seeing-in-europe-is-the-hijra/

Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch has penned an excellent piece describing how what we are seeing in Europe is not a spontaneous wave of humanity simply looking for a better life, but in fact we are seeing the hijraâ€"emigration for the cause of Allah.

hijra
Is the hijra coming to America? I think it is already here and I wrote about it. (Published by the Center for Security Policy and available at Amazon)
Remember how former Libyan leader Col. Gaddafi famously said Europe would be conquered:

We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europeâ€"without swords, without guns, without conquestâ€"will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.

Hundreds of thousands more are on the way.  Will it take a “few decades” or will one decade effectively finish western civilization in Europe as we know it?

Spencer (emphasis is mine):

Approximately 104,460 asylum seekers arrived in Germany during the month of August, setting a new record. That makes 413,535 registered refugees and migrants coming to Germany in 2015 so far. The country expects a total of around 800,000 people to seek asylum in Germany this year. And that’s just Germany. The entire continent of Europe is being inundated with refugees at a rate unprecedented in world history. This is no longer just a “refugee crisis.” This is a hijrah.

Hijrah, or jihad by emigration, is, according to Islamic tradition, the migration or journey of Muhammad and his followers from Mecca to Yathrib, later renamed by him to Medina, in the year 622 CE. It was after the hijrah that Muhammad for the first time became not just a preacher of religious ideas, but a political and military leader. That was what occasioned his new “revelations” exhorting his followers to commit violence against unbelievers. Significantly, the Islamic calendar counts the hijrah, not Muhammad’s birth or the occasion of his first “revelation,” as the beginning of Islam, implying that Islam is not fully itself without a political and military component.

To emigrate in the cause of Allah â€" that is, to move to a new land in order to bring Islam there, is considered in Islam to be a highly meritorious act. “And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the earth many locations and abundance,” says the Qur’an. “And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him, his reward has already become incumbent upon Allah. And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.” (4:100) The exalted status of such emigrants led a British jihad group that won notoriety (and a shutdown by the government) a few years ago for celebrating 9/11 to call itself Al-Muhajiroun: The Emigrants.

And now a hijrah of a much greater magnitude is upon us.

I looked up the history of Hijra and haven't yet found what I want, but that doesn't change my initial statement that Islam is opportunistic. The problem as jonb alluded to is that it is a very black and white issue; but I did see an article some weeks ago that showed historically that Islam has been far more aggressive than any other religion in terms of military and moving in to other countries. We are talking about the entire history of Islam from day one- the militaristic and opportunistic aspects are built in to the religion.

There have been studies done, and I have posted them previously, that show a significant percentage of Islam supports Jihad and even terrorism. My overall point would be that YOU CAN'T TRUST ISLAM TO PLAY BY THE RULES.

[josephpalazzo]

I have enboldened the segment I have very strong problems with.
What about if I do not believe my cultural values are better than anyone else's just that they are different? That the culture I enjoy is a delicate thing to be protected, nourished, and valued. Why is it wrong for me to pursue a happiness which might be different from others?

That would be fine in a utopian society. In the real world, values clash. If you're not prepared to defend your values, you will be steamrolled sooner or later. Just think of yourself living under the Nazis in Hitler's Germany or in the Soviet Union under Stalin: You really think you can live in peace with your values side by side with those who have vastly different values than yours and have more power than you and like-minded have? Think again.

[Green Bottle]

[Green Bottle]

[pr126]

Family of drowned toddler Aylan Kurdi had been given FREE housing in Turkey, while father’s story is full of holes

Abdullah Kurdi’s story is made-up. But his lies are now being used and rewarded by the media in full blown propaganda, while pressuring policies to force Europe to take in more economic migrants who have never experienced a war zone. The dead toddler pornography is a dream-come true PR campaign serving ISIS and their overwhelming Muslim supporters.
Abdullah was never on that boat to watch his wife and children drown. That’s why he was the only survivor. The first time he learned of their death was from the hospital after the photos of his young son was circulating in the media. Listen to all the contradictions and holes in his story.
This was an attempt to send his wife and children into Europe before his own arrival to apply for refugee status as a lone woman with children, while they never even lived in a war zone.

[jonb]

That would be fine in a utopian society. In the real world, values clash. If you're not prepared to defend your values, you will be steamrolled sooner or later. Just think of yourself living under the Nazis in Hitler's Germany or in the Soviet Union under Stalin: You really think you can live in peace with your values side by side with those who have vastly different values than yours and have more power than you and like-minded have? Think again.

The recognition of cultures clashing is exactly I would say is what is driving most of the posts here, the question is how to deal with that.

Stop all refugees from our borders they are all evil. Problem is with that that by demonising others you will also loose What europeans and have been fighting for for generations, and to invoke Godwin's law which has already come into play Hitler was right if we take this view. I will fight against that society just as my father did.
Or
We could use the American model you can come here only if you give up any identification with being other than American. The melting pot.
Well I am a Cockney, Greenbottle is Scottish I very much doubt that either one of us would willingly give up our inheritance to be submerged into being some sort of generic middle class British. There would be a bloody fight if anybody forced me into that particular straightjacket. This acceptance of difference and toleration of difference is not some sort of Utopia but is how Britain has worked and been fought for for probably before records began. Part of being that is that we are not about to force on somebody else what we would not accept for ourselves.
Yes there is occasional strife with the British method, but the Chinese communities that have been here for more than two hundred years seem happy enough with it as do the Yemenis of Wales that have been here for more than a hundred etc. There is no strict separation but if you want to keep to your own fine if you want to mix that is also your choice but the emphasis is on choice. 

The problem is that we have had so much immigration into Britain the understanding of how that toleration is achieved is less and less understood, and with Arabic culture being in many ways opposite of British working class culture the traditional British understanding is shattering and what seems to be happening is that walls are going up and tolerance is becoming strict separation even in indigenous British communities, which I think may lead to conflict.

So for me any solution is going to have to be about compromise. You know considering the point of view of those you don't agree with and adapting to their needs, not just forcing your own view through.

Some refugees maybe, but no open border. And even a bit of education about British culture and history that is not written by a right winger, or lefty that does not even admit there might be such a thing as British culture.

[josephpalazzo]

We could use the American model you can come here only if you give up any identification with being other than American. The melting pot.

This was true years ago, with the waves of immigrants such as the Irish, the Italians, the Russians, to name a few. But today, that is changing, you can go in certain cities, and vast neighborhood, you won't see a single word of English, you won't hear a single word of it. The Hispanics are quite determined to keep their language and culture. Perhaps in two or three generations, they will only speak English, who knows, but there is a difference that wasn't there years ago.

The problem is that we have had so much immigration into Britain the understanding of how that toleration is achieved is less and less understood, and with Arabic culture being in many ways opposite of British working class culture the traditional British understanding is shattering and what seems to be happening is that walls are going up and tolerance is becoming strict separation even in indigenous British communities, which I think may lead to conflict.

So for me any solution is going to have to be about compromise. You know considering the point of view of those you don't agree with and adapting to their needs, not just forcing your own view through.

Some refugees maybe, but no open border. And even a bit of education about British culture and history that is not written by a right winger, or lefty that does not even admit there might be such a thing as British culture.

I agree.

[TomFoolery]

One disgusting trend I have noticed lately is to refer to them as "migrants" as a way to soften the emotional blow; like that is what the world needs, more cynicism and heartlessness.

This is something I had noticed too, but I didn't dismiss it as a mainstream media attempting to soften the blow. Migrant conjures up some image of Syrians trekking West like they always do for France's famous corn harvests. </sarcasm> Anyone with half a brain cell knows that's not exactly the case. So why do we act like it is, like these people are just leaving Syria because they just decided to take an extended vacation?

Migrants, refugees, displaced persons, etc... all have very specific legal definitions and carry specific obligations by governments under international agreements. As best as I can tell, whoever is trying to classify what's happening in Europe as a "migrant" issue is making a blatant attempt to absolve themselves of any responsibility for what happens to the people flooding the country. The definitions aren't interchangeable.

[pr126]

Not all migrants are Syrian refugees.

They are also coming from sub Saharan Africa, North Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkans etc.
Europe so far absorbed 50 Million Muslims, with no end in sight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDnAwkjrs4o

[TomFoolery]

Not all migrants are Syrian refugees.

They are also coming from sub Saharan Africa, North Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkans etc.

This is true, but a factor many of them have in common is that they're fleeing instability in their home countries largely created by the same countries now doing their damnedest to avoid taking them in. The U.S. absolutely included.

[pr126]

This is true, but a factor many of them have in common is that they're fleeing instability in their home countries largely created by the same countries now doing their damnedest to avoid taking them in. The U.S. absolutely included.

What is the root cause of the instability? The poverty? The illiteracy? Their moral, intellectual, social, economical, political failures?
Not Europe.
Not me.
Why am I held responsible for their failure?
Do you feel responsible?