Worship of the soldier

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Maybe there was a time,  but good luck landing a jet on I-5 in California at anytime of the day or night these days!

If it's a matter of crashing or making a less than stellar landing, I'd go for the chance.

[SGOS]

Maybe there was a time,  but good luck landing a jet on I-5 in California at anytime of the day or night these days!

I'm picturing those California drivers, always on the edge of road rage in the first place, honking their horns and yelling out the window, "Learn how to fly, Asshole!"

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm picturing those California drivers, always on the edge of road rage in the first place, honking their horns and yelling out the window, "Learn how to fly, Asshole!"

At which point everybody draws guns and the air is full of flying lead.

[stromboli]

Don't bother. And stop PMing me.

[TomFoolery]

Of course, they are going to disagree with me, I am calling them murderers. Also as I repeated twice, your culture is so engrossed in militarism and wars as industries,  you people don't even comprehend the point of view of this is not being a job; that there is a BIG difference between the soldier who is fighting to defend his country and the one who travels to the other side of the world to invade and destroy for resource/money and power by choice. It's that alien to you.

I stopped being angry at you a long time ago because it's like you really can't help it. But I laughed out loud at your use of "you people." I don't think there's any one phrase a person could use and demand to not be taken seriously quite like "you people." It really belongs as another entry here:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=You+People

My point, is that active combatants in American army are mercenaries. Mercenary does not have any positive meaning. NONE. (I found out that I need to remind it here.)In fact, it simply means killing for money.

That isn't a point. It's an opinion.

Not just me. Including the last veteran I responded to, he was saying exactly the ppopsite of other veterans. Not that personal accounts really matters because I am moving from a definition, but while you described all veterans 'humble' he described them as 'scumbags'.

I don't recall he said all veterans were scumbags. That's more like what you would say. And it is true. There really are some dirtbag troops (current and former) out there. I've met plenty.

And you are making the mistake of evaluating the American militarism as something it is not because you were in it, bercause your sons are in it; as something unavoidable, inevitable; a simple service as a job and veterans as humble servants.

Funny how you condemn a bunch of people for being unable to see the military for what you perceive it to be because they have served in it and are thus somehow blinded to reality. I don't know this for sure, but I'm going to go out on a crazy long limb and say you never served in the American military. So me, as a person who can see the military from the point of view of a civilian, a service member, and now a veteran, I daresay I'd have a clearer picture of reality than you do, along with the other veterans on this thread. So stop talking out of your ass.

It's like you're trying suppose that if a person served in the military, they are incapable of seeing it (or America or its leaders) through anything but adoring, red, white, and blue colored glasses and have giant freedom boners over bald eagles and all renditions of Lee Greenwood's God Bless the USA. I think every veteran in this thread has commented to the effect that that isn't necessarily true, but you keep going on in this circular, non-connected argument.

It is possible for most people to have a discussion about veterans specifically without instantly going on some random tangent about the evil empire that is America, but just not you I guess.

[Baruch]

Trying to square a circle: There is a difference between the US government and its citizens.  There is a difference between foreign policy and the grunts who get to carry out the gritty part of it.  If I weren't American, I would be even more pissed about the US government than I already am.  If I weren't American, I would be even more pissed about US foreign policy than I already am.  I get that ... it wasn't fun being in Dresden during the firebombing or in Hiroshima during the first use of nuclear weapons ... and I don't expect any German or Japanese to ever forgive the US or Britain for the evil we did to them.  But they were the losers in a "trial by combat".  They made the mistake of escalating to state level violence, and paid the price for that mistake (when you do it against capable opponents ... not itty bitty Libya ... that is the right way to be an aggressor ... and Nato/US was the aggressor there ... you attack Czechoslovakia if it has no big brother to protect it).  But attacking Poland, who had a big brother, was fatal for Germany, even if Poland itself was not.

What a less entangled foreigner could do, would be to find out why people participate in citizenship, why sometimes that takes the form of military service.  Be clinical and not pre-judgemental.  Otherwise I might as well go on a German website and call them all a bunch of damned krauts.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Try reading "Starship Troopers".

[Mike Cl]

Try reading "Starship Troopers".

And play the game.

[TomFoolery]

Try reading "Starship Troopers".

I don't think I've ever seen the intent of any book nearly as debated as that of Starship Troopers. Almost everyone I knew in the military takes the book at face value, at best, as a model for how society should work and at worst, a glossed over love letter to the infantry. I saw the movie before reading the book, and the movie was obviously satire produced to critique the military-industrial complex, invasive foreign policy, and a culture that prefers reactionary aggression over reason and diplomacy. I was unable to see the book independent from the movie, and continued to perceive it as satire, though I think Heinlein wrote it seriously for juvenile boys. For all the literal moral philosophy scattered through the book, never once is the viewpoint of the bugs mentioned, or that of post traumatic stress, or the moral dilemmas inherent in the profession of soldiering. I draw a lot of parallels between it and Ender's Game, though Ender's Game is far more blunt about how our destruction of the bug race had a lot more to do with tragedy and misunderstandings than victory and accomplishment.

I think part of the appeal (and danger) of Starship Troopers is that it will literally speak to anyone. It's like a Briggs Meyers personality inventory: whether or not the reader agrees with the message, he or she will left feeling like "OMG THAT'S SO TRUE!" Perhaps it's also accurate to say it's like one of those brain teaser images that could be either an old woman or a young girl, and if you tell someone who has never seen it what your opinion of it is, it's going to bias them toward seeing it your way. Someone convinced its military propaganda before even opening it is going to see it that way, whereas someone convinced it's satire will be unable to see it as anything but satire.

[Mike Cl]

I don't think I've ever seen the intent of any book nearly as debated as that of Starship Troopers. Almost everyone I knew in the military takes the book at face value, at best, as a model for how society should work and at worst, a glossed over love letter to the infantry. I saw the movie before reading the book, and the movie was obviously satire produced to critique the military-industrial complex, invasive foreign policy, and a culture that prefers reactionary aggression over reason and diplomacy. I was unable to see the book independent from the movie, and continued to perceive it as satire, though I think Heinlein wrote it seriously for juvenile boys. For all the literal moral philosophy scattered through the book, never once is the viewpoint of the bugs mentioned, or that of post traumatic stress, or the moral dilemmas inherent in the profession of soldiering. I draw a lot of parallels between it and Ender's Game, though Ender's Game is far more blunt about how our destruction of the bug race had a lot more to do with tragedy and misunderstandings than victory and accomplishment.

I think part of the appeal (and danger) of Starship Troopers is that it will literally speak to anyone. It's like a Briggs Meyers personality inventory: whether or not the reader agrees with the message, he or she will left feeling like "OMG THAT'S SO TRUE!" Perhaps it's also accurate to say it's like one of those brain teaser images that could be either an old woman or a young girl, and if you tell someone who has never seen it what your opinion of it is, it's going to bias them toward seeing it your way. Someone convinced its military propaganda before even opening it is going to see it that way, whereas someone convinced it's satire will be unable to see it as anything but satire.

I read that book about 40 yrs. ago (and that is a fact that I have a hard time wrapping my head around!).  I only remember it as being a story about war.  At one time, I had read all that Heinlein wrote.  I reread Stranger In A Strange Land a couple of years ago, and it did not have the same impact it did on me when I was in my 20's.  But it was still a good read.  I'll have to dig up a copy of Starship Troopers and give a whirl.  It will be interesting what I come away with now.

And the game was a touch over 'okay'--it was published by Avalon Hill, my all time fav game producer.  AH is sadly gone the way of many gaming companies--out of Business.  Their gaming magazine, The General, was one of my must haves while it was being published.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The movie wasn't satire, it was travesty. Nobody can honestly say that the two are similar in anything but the most superficial way.

I read the book in high school, long after I knew I was going to join the Navy. It prepped me for boot camp and gave me guidance about leadership problems.

It was an examination of one way society might go. RAH tested out many models in his books, this was just one of them.

[drunkenshoe]

Don't bother. And stop PMing me.

Yeah I shouldn't have. You posted to me in this thread knowing what I think.

E: I have just sent you the last post I have written here. When you say 'and stop pming me' it gives the impression as if I am bombarding you with pms esp. after I said I pmed you once for not being around a while. So fuck you for that.

[drunkenshoe]

I stopped being angry at you a long time ago because it's like you really can't help it. But I laughed out loud at your use of "you people." I don't think there's any one phrase a person could use and demand to not be taken seriously quite like "you people." It really belongs as another entry here:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=You+People
That isn't a point. It's an opinion.
I don't recall he said all veterans were scumbags. That's more like what you would say. And it is true. There really are some dirtbag troops (current and former) out there. I've met plenty.
Funny how you condemn a bunch of people for being unable to see the military for what you perceive it to be because they have served in it and are thus somehow blinded to reality. I don't know this for sure, but I'm going to go out on a crazy long limb and say you never served in the American military. So me, as a person who can see the military from the point of view of a civilian, a service member, and now a veteran, I daresay I'd have a clearer picture of reality than you do, along with the other veterans on this thread. So stop talking out of your ass.

It's like you're trying suppose that if a person served in the military, they are incapable of seeing it (or America or its leaders) through anything but adoring, red, white, and blue colored glasses and have giant freedom boners over bald eagles and all renditions of Lee Greenwood's God Bless the USA. I think every veteran in this thread has commented to the effect that that isn't necessarily true, but you keep going on in this circular, non-connected argument.

It is possible for most people to have a discussion about veterans specifically without instantly going on some random tangent about the evil empire that is America, but just not you I guess.

I have no idea why are you still posting to me about this. And the thing is you are just writing the same post over and over again and cannot finish it for some reason. And you have avoided what I referred as 'the point' from the begining and defined it as an opinion in that never ending post. Also I have never just talked about veterans.

-It's NOT AN OPINION that any kind of wars; invasions is the biggest US industry.

-It's NOT AN OPINION that veterans are making PERSONAL choices to become soldiers to take part in active combat in the US army.

-It's NOT AN OPINION that they are NOT defending or potecting their people or their country.

-It's NOT AN OPINION that there is a big difference between a soldier invading a country just for gain and the one defending his country.

-It's NOT AN OPINION that what they do; traveling to the other sides of the world to invade other countries, create mass destruction; atrocities; causing millions of death toll IS DEFINED AS A 'JOB' in their country.

-It's NOT AN OPINION that this is the definition of MERCENARY.

Let's make it simple so you can wrap your little head around it:

-It's NOT AN OPINION that if you get out of your house armed, go somewhere else and break into someone else's home, kill the people living there for your profit and benefit you are a fucking murderer. You are not just wearing a uniform.

-It's NOT AN OPINION that if you don't see anything wrong with commiting murder and see it as a simple 'job' to grow, something is fundamentally wrong with you -or anyone else for that matter- and the culture that defines it as a 'job'.

That is 'THE POINT'^. Now let's talk about OPINIONS.

Under those circumstances, you and other veterans talking about;

-how or why you have decided to join the army
-why you decided to quit
-your experiences about army and active duty
-what you think about veterans as veterans
-what you think how should veterans be percieved in your society
-why some of them are humble or some are scumbags
-what you feel about yourself or feel/think about all this...etc.

-And TomFoolery, everything you write about me from who am I, why I'm so 'angry', what I think, what I do, what should I do...blah blah.

Those^ are fucking OPINIONS. None of it -including politics- changes the FACT that under those circumstances, what you define as 'serving in the military' and as a 'job' is murder in uniform under orders that soldiers agree by contract to obey and to get paid.

If you are not a mentally handicapped -and I am saying this literally; if your IQ is not in some range that would require special education- if you have an ordinary level of intelligence, you know that taking a part in this is WRONG. If you don't, you are just making a choice and you are not different than people who send soldiers to fly planes in to skycrapers, bomb around killing innocent people. They are soldiers too you know, they are not just wearing uniforms, that's all. And in the US's case those people have a lot of REAL reasons in their perverted views.

All we have is CHOICE. We don't have anything else. We can't have free will or freedom. They are delusions and the only thing we can do is to make a choice among the available ones. Guess what, making a choice of NOT to harm other human beings for your own gain or NOT to take part in to do so -esp. AS A CAREER- is the easiest one to pick. It's something you learn in nursery. So when you talk about reality, bother to think about the set of general choices people in your country have even in the worst positions AND the ones in the ME or other places.

But you -along with others- cannot even begin to comprehend -let alone acknowledge- what is meant with all this here, because it seems it's almost impossible for you to see what soldiers/veterans 'do' in this way, while it is so normal to you that it is just a 'job' to get your teeth done and also with claiming that actually a lot of veterans do not even believe the political bullshit they are being fed. The conflict, the irony in that^ OW. And that is American culture I defined as inherently hostile and militarist, normalising all this into a simple 'job', a legitimate industry; something almost inevitable that make you this blind to what it actually is.   


Now you can go back to masturbating about what an 'angry bitch' I am, how much I don't know about veterans and this and that, what am I, who am I, what should I do, what should I be, what you feel about me...blah blah. You are not really equipped to say anything more. 






   

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You still have that corncob up your ass, I see.

[hrdlr110]

Gotcha.

Geezus, really?  I figured that out 3 pages or more ago, and i never served. Was born in an army hospital cuz pops served tho.