The idea that "you send yourself to hell"

[Baruch]

And our parish priest at the time was probably just this side of being a Liberation Theology follower.  He later went on to head the diocesan ecumenical office.  I hope he did well there; I hope he's still doing well.  I still have enormous respect for him -- he was one of the few priests I knew who focused on the joy of life, and in his case, the joy of a religious life.  There are (or at least were) a few like that; I've been away so long, I don't know if they exist anymore.

Unfortunately "liberation theology Catholics" were highly unpopular with the Church hierarchy and the local Latin American dictator.  There might be few, because so many were murdered.  Gotta keep the Monroe Doctrine going, and keep the Communists out of the New World.

[trdsf]

Unfortunately "liberation theology Catholics" were highly unpopular with the Church hierarchy and the local Latin American dictator.  Their might be few, because so many were murdered.  Gotta keep the Monroe Doctrine going, and keep the Communists out of the New World.

It was tolerated under John XXIII and Paul VI; JP2 cracked down hard, though -- not just on liberation theology, but on progressivism of any shade within the church -- and Ratzinger as head of the Inquisition (known today as the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith) was dove head first into it, accusing without any apparent sense of irony (or hypocrisy) that adherents of LT were "politically interpreting" the bible.

[SGOS]

Not all Christians believe that, for one.  Back when I was a practicing Catholic (no, really, altar boy. lector and everything) I was never told that homosexuality was a sin and that it was an evil thing, either from my parents or from the pulpit.  My uncle, my mom's older brother (and there's that genetic marker again) was gay and out, this in the mid 1970s when it was a lot less socially normal.  Religiously, it hadn't been made an issue, and personally, family was involved and that came first.

So I don't think my reply to the original poster was unkind.  He had explicitly made those comparisons, and in the process of trying to claim for himself the moral high ground.  I think I showed restraint, actually.

Somewhere in time, probably in my mid puberty, my father decided to have the traditional father son talk with me.  I don't know if that is still a common ritual or not.  I never hear the words "Father/son talk" anymore and back then, that phrase was almost assuredly referring to the traditional "SEX TALK."

Well, it was anti-climactic.  I doubt that my father knew much more about the topic than I did, but it was something he felt pressured about,  and he needed to get it over with.  I let him off the hook.  He started out asking if I knew anything about sex, and I could tell he was kind of nervous, so I said, "Yeah, I think I've heard all of it from the older boys."   (lol... like the 12 and 13 year olds).  So he didn't go any further.  Of course, what I'd heard were mostly dirty jokes and livid descriptions using socially inappropriate words, although it did sound like exciting forbidden fruit to me.

One thing he did ask is whether I was attracted to girls or boys.  Well, I was attracted to girls.  There was no doubt in my mind about that.  All he said was that it meant I was normal then.  Oddly, I had no emotional reaction to that.  I would expect I should have been greatly pleased to be judged "normal," but at most, my reaction was a shrug of the shoulders.  But I didn't really know much about homosexuality then either.  But I assumed my father's implication was that it wasn't normal.

Other than the normal/abnormal thing, I can't remember any condemnation of homosexuality in my family.  There was certainly never any preaching about wickedness and sin in that regard.  That sort of stuff started showing up outside the family when I got older.

[Baruch]

All that abnormal means, isn't that you are a bad person.  But given the way society is, you will have a harder time in life, if you aren't normal, and people find out about it.

[Babytooth]

Okay. Let's say that we passively choose Hell because we actively love sin. Why do we love sin? Because we have a sin nature. Who designed us? God. See where I'm going with this? If God wanted perfect people who didn't sin, he could make them. Instead, he creates evil people who love to do evil things. And before you start about the "original sin" of Adam, why did God allow Adam to multiply? Why not castrate him and start over with another group of sinless beings? Or even more simply, why did God decide that everyone with Adam's genes would start life with his sinful nature? Why not give newborn babies a sinless nature, instead of making us "born into sin?"

ok for one when god created man he created him with freewill. and what comes along with freewill? Hell what truly is freewill? it seems to me that with freewill your spirit or soul(You) is open to all influences good and evil which ever one you prefer is the one you will pick up on. Most Humans like a little of both, but through Gods help, dedication, and discipline Christians and others that truly realize what there doing is wrong will try and change there evil ways. and try to become a better man or woman.

About the "original sin of Adam and sinless beings" well were right back to freewill again truly, Adam already had freewill and he chose the enlightenment of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
When you think about it from our view of course we say "why don't he kill all mankind" "none of us are truly holy".  But how special are the ones that truly strive everyday for a close relationship with the almighty God?  The ones that truly has came to hate the sins they commit. Because God will never be intimidated by evil, evil can never win.
Something else that you said, about why did god let Adams seed multiply? Well upon my studies in Genesis (the KJV only for me haha) this is something Ive never heard someone else recognize Personally but if you read on the creation of man, God made man and told him to be fruitful and multiply, This is BEFORE god made Eve and BEFORE god made Adam from the dust. What that tells me is the spirits of man or What man truly is, was made before the body of man and even before god breathed the breathe of life into the nostrils of Adam in order to make him a living soul.

[Mike Cl]

ok for one when god created man he created him with freewill. and what comes along with freewill? Hell what truly is freewill? it seems to me that with freewill your spirit or soul(You) is open to all influences good and evil which ever one you prefer is the one you will pick up on. Most Humans like a little of both, but through Gods help, dedication, and discipline Christians and others that truly realize what there doing is wrong will try and change there evil ways. and try to become a better man or woman.

About the "original sin of Adam and sinless beings" well were right back to freewill again truly, Adam already had freewill and he chose the enlightenment of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
When you think about it from our view of course we say "why don't he kill all mankind" "none of us are truly holy".  But how special are the ones that truly strive everyday for a close relationship with the almighty God?  The ones that truly has came to hate the sins they commit. Because God will never be intimidated by evil, evil can never win.
Something else that you said, about why did god let Adams seed multiply? Well upon my studies in Genesis (the KJV only for me haha) this is something Ive never heard someone else recognize Personally but if you read on the creation of man, God made man and told him to be fruitful and multiply, This is BEFORE god made Eve and BEFORE god made Adam from the dust. What that tells me is the spirits of man or What man truly is, was made before the body of man and even before god breathed the breathe of life into the nostrils of Adam in order to make him a living soul.

Uhhh.....................what?????   Is English your second language?  Did you read this before you posted it?  This is hard to muddle through. 

So, you read the KJV of Genesis.  Then you must realize that Gen. 1 tells us that god created man; and god indicated he was made in 'our' image--meaning god and his buddies.  Who were his buddies?  No mention is made of Eve.  Genesis 2 tells a different story and Eve is created from Adam's rib. because Adam is lonely.  So what is the correct story?

[Unbeliever]

Do consider that hell can just mean that you are separated from god... I'm feeling nice to them for one

Not according to Psalm 139:7-8 (KJV):

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

How can hell be separation from God, if we'll find Him even in hell?

[Baruch]

Uhhh.....................what?????   Is English your second language?  Did you read this before you posted it?  This is hard to muddle through. 

So, you read the KJV of Genesis.  Then you must realize that Gen. 1 tells us that god created man; and god indicated he was made in 'our' image--meaning god and his buddies.  Who were his buddies?  No mention is made of Eve.  Genesis 2 tells a different story and Eve is created from Adam's rib. because Adam is lonely.  So what is the correct story?

Worse .... the original story about Lilith was better ;-)

[Babytooth]

Uhhh.....................what?????   Is English your second language?  Did you read this before you posted it?  This is hard to muddle through. 

So, you read the KJV of Genesis.  Then you must realize that Gen. 1 tells us that god created man; and god indicated he was made in 'our' image--meaning god and his buddies.  Who were his buddies?  No mention is made of Eve.  Genesis 2 tells a different story and Eve is created from Adam's rib. because Adam is lonely.  So what is the correct story?

Our is the trinity actually a prophecy in its self.

[Mike Cl]

Our is the trinity actually a prophecy in its self.

You lost me on that one.  But then, I am the stupid one.

[Randy Carson]

Not according to Psalm 139:7-8 (KJV):

How can hell be separation from God, if we'll find Him even in hell?

The Psalms are a more poetic genre. David and the other authors used more poetic license than we might expect from Luke or Paul.

[Unbeliever]

Oh, so when you want to believe it to be literal, it is, but when you want it to be "poetic license," it can be that, too.


How very convenient...

[Randy Carson]

Oh, so when you want to believe it to be literal, it is, but when you want it to be "poetic license," it can be that, too.


How very convenient...

It depends on the genre and the author's intent. The Bible is a collection of 73 books. It's not just one book.

[trdsf]

It depends on the genre and the author's intent. The Bible is a collection of 73 books. It's not just one book.

Ah, and you are the infallible arbiter of which parts are literally true and which parts are being "poetic".

How's those cherries you picked, there?

[Randy Carson]

Ah, and you are the infallible arbiter of which parts are literally true and which parts are being "poetic".

How's those cherries you picked, there?

No. Maybe Wikipedia is:

Among the generally recognized genres and categorizations of the Bible are the following (note that other systems and classifications have also been advanced):

Historical narrative/epic: Genesis and the first half of Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Jonah, and possibly Acts
The Law: the last half of Exodus; also Leviticus, Deuteronomy
Wisdom: Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes
Psalms: Psalms, Song of Solomon, Lamentations
Prophecy: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi
Apocalyptic: Daniel, Revelation
Gospel: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and possibly Acts
Epistle (letter): Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2, and 3 John, Jude

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_genre