The idea that "you send yourself to hell"

[doorknob]

there's always this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJgLBoB_Pw

[peacewithoutgod]

The members of this forum can read our respective posts and decide for themselves which of us is exhibiting poor manners.

I'm sure they will, but I would be remiss as a member who cares not to warn them of your patterns.

I believe what you have already made plain for all to see here is that you do not truly care one bit whether or not your ideas are truthful or not, you care only that they fit your definition of correctness. "Correctness" needs only to stand up to a set of arbitrary standards for what to believe and/or how to behave, without any regard for what can be verified as true across cultural barriers.

You have only your own culture to verify for you your ideas on sexuality and behavior (so long as it continues to satisfy your very narrow definition of correctness), and the rest of the world sees the untruth of them for what it all is. You should know that you you can no longer win your wars to wield the tyranny of such cruel lies against the rest of us who know better, and actually care about social justice. You may easily become the very last jerk alive in America to embrace your ideas on sexual behavior, and then you will have to either admit that you were wrong or start praying real hard for the big rapture which will never, ever come.

Outside of your perversely twisted little world, human civilization survives and thrives. Hearts, minds, and souls  are quite healthy without the poison you have to sell. Or to be more true to fact, only one of the above three need apply - "mind" was coined a few centuries ago as a synonym for "soul" to avoid controversy with the witch-hunt religious authorities (thereby the soul was studied and defined), and "heart" poetically references a somewhat nebulous compartment of the other where emotional processing takes place.

Where you take your religion to the weak tribes which you impose it on, witch hunts are happening today which make the medieval stake burnings appear civil by comparision. You need to google up "witch trials Indonesia" - you did this, Christian! You made societies which were relatively peaceful into some of disgusting violence! It wasn't their fault that they misunderstood what they were taught, and it isn't some other preacher's fault for not teaching them right, it is every Christian's fault if he supported or approved of bringing your religion to cultures where it could do no more good than harm.

[trdsf]

The members of this forum can read our respective posts and decide for themselves which of us is exhibiting poor manners.

Yeah, and I'm gonna say it's the guy who's equating homosexuality with alcoholism (a disease), adultery (a moral failing) and pedophilia (a crime).

I got some real simple advice for you, Randy my lad.  If you find homosexuality distasteful, don't have sex with men.  That's really all there is to it.  If you feel the need to stop other people from so doing on the basis of your beliefs, that's where you cross over into homophobia.

Me, I don't care what you feel compelled to insert into who, so long as they're adult and have consented.  I find that a much more ethical rule to go by -- it has the advantage of being based in the real world.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

The members of this forum can read our respective posts and decide for themselves which of us is exhibiting poor manners.

The irony of this post is adorable.

[Baruch]

This still doesn't answer how a loving god could create a place of eternal torment for sinners, and why it's an equal punishment for me to have sex with another woman as it is for Hitler to kill 6 million jews.  Seems like I should go and kill 6 million people by this logic.

Revised reply, because it fits in the current context ...

Well you happen to be right.  I see nothing wrong with a loving relationship with a woman, regardless of who you are.  I don't believe in an after-life myself ... so there is no punishment for Hitler or reward for Churchill etc.  Paul addressed the idea ... that it was a subterfuge to go do some sinning, because cheap grace later will annul any punishment.  That isn't how Jewish justice works.  You have to compensate your victims before you even get to sincere repentance.

[widdershins]

Yes, this is a common understanding among Christians.

This ignores a few things. One, that someone who has lived a life of sin would WANT to be in the presence of an all-holy God. The reason that people "choose hell" is because in the next life we see ourselves as we really are. And some of us have spent an entire lifetime here on earth opposed to God and all that He represents. So, God is not going to force people who hate Him to spend an eternity in His presence. And if you read the handouts closely, you'll note that the greatest torments of hell are the absence of God and regret - and these are not active tortures but the absence of good things.

And this ignores a few things. One, that both the lesbian and Hitler have chosen their own paths and will above that of God. So, it's not really about equating the holocaust to lesbianism...it's about the fact that neither of you wants to obey God or be in His presence. You're just in defiance in different ways.

All of this is apologetic nonsense.  Choosing NOT to spend an eternity with God IS NOT THE SAME as choosing TO spend an eternity in Hell any more than choosing NOT to have sex with a particular person is choosing TO get raped.  That's just pure, unadulterated bullshit concentrate right there.  We call that "victim blaming" in modern society.

This nonsensical thought process is nothing more than a way to soften and humanize the brutal thing you worship.  The God of the Bible is undeniably brutal and cruel, every bit capable of "casting" (to take the word straight from the Bible) those who are "undeserving" of him into eternal torment.  It's the type of thing which can only be sated with blood sacrifice and strict adherence to totalitarian rule.  I know you believe your God is loving and kind, but come one.  You know every bit as much as I do that the Old Testament paints a very different picture than the "loving father" you have in your head.  And you don't strike me as an utter buffoon, so you also know full well (though you've never admitted it to yourself) that you have had to "cover for" your God many, many times, making up on the spot an excuse why his brutality wasn't his fault, even and especially to yourself.  Nobody would choose to go to Hell.  People may choose not to spend eternity with your God, but that is in no way the same thing.

[Baruch]

It is an odd psychology, that people feel it necessary to "victim blame" themselves even ... to protect the reputation of a brutal G-d.  Isn't G-d big enough to live with things as they are, as She actually is?  I visualize G-d as being more female ... Gaia the Bitch.

[Blackleaf]

Yeah, and I'm gonna say it's the guy who's equating homosexuality with alcoholism (a disease), adultery (a moral failing) and pedophilia (a crime).

When I was a Christian, I did the same thing. When you grow up hearing that homosexuality is a sin, and a very serious one, it is only natural to lump it together with all the other destructive behaviors you know of. You can't blame a Christian for believing what Christians believe. If people were kinder to me when I said that homosexual acts were evil, it might not have taken me so long to figure out that I'd been force fed BS my whole life.

[widdershins]

It is an odd psychology, that people feel it necessary to "victim blame" themselves even ... to protect the reputation of a brutal G-d.  Isn't G-d big enough to live with things as they are, as She actually is?  I visualize G-d as being more female ... Gaia the Bitch.

It is a bit of a psychological oddity, isn't it?  People create an imaginary abusive partner which they use to make themselves feel inadequate, worthless and afraid to ever leave that imaginary abusive partner.  I guess I never thought of that before.

[Baruch]

It is a bit of a psychological oddity, isn't it?  People create an imaginary abusive partner which they use to make themselves feel inadequate, worthless and afraid to ever leave that imaginary abusive partner.  I guess I never thought of that before.

You can learn a lot, if you apply psychology to human behavior ;-)  And why invent an invisible abuser ... when there are plenty of real humans who will do that anyway?  In my case, I use the invisible abusive partner to be angry with, not to lower my self esteem.  The Ex is no longer available.

[widdershins]

You can learn a lot, if you apply psychology to human behavior ;-)  And why invent an invisible abuser ... when there are plenty of real humans who will do that anyway?  In my case, I use the invisible abusive partner to be angry with, not to lower my self esteem.  The Ex is no longer available.

I actually have given quite a bit of thought to the psychology of belief, being an ex-Pentecostal.  I had just never seen it from that angle before.  And I completely agree, it is quite fascinating.

[Baruch]

I actually have given quite a bit of thought to the psychology of belief, being an ex-Pentecostal.  I had just never seen it from that angle before.  And I completely agree, it is quite fascinating.

The familiar can become more interesting if you deliberately replace the nouns with different ones, or if you do a logical inversion of the statement.  But then ... thinking of G-d as a less than successful person ... is considered blasphemous for that very reason ... they know where you are going, and head you off at the pass.

[trdsf]

When I was a Christian, I did the same thing. When you grow up hearing that homosexuality is a sin, and a very serious one, it is only natural to lump it together with all the other destructive behaviors you know of. You can't blame a Christian for believing what Christians believe. If people were kinder to me when I said that homosexual acts were evil, it might not have taken me so long to figure out that I'd been force fed BS my whole life.

Not all Christians believe that, for one.  Back when I was a practicing Catholic (no, really, altar boy. lector and everything) I was never told that homosexuality was a sin and that it was an evil thing, either from my parents or from the pulpit.  My uncle, my mom's older brother (and there's that genetic marker again) was gay and out, this in the mid 1970s when it was a lot less socially normal.  Religiously, it hadn't been made an issue, and personally, family was involved and that came first.

So I don't think my reply to the original poster was unkind.  He had explicitly made those comparisons, and in the process of trying to claim for himself the moral high ground.  I think I showed restraint, actually.

[Baruch]

Not all Christians believe that, for one.  Back when I was a practicing Catholic (no, really, altar boy. lector and everything) I was never told that homosexuality was a sin and that it was an evil thing, either from my parents or from the pulpit.  My uncle, my mom's older brother (and there's that genetic marker again) was gay and out, this in the mid 1970s when it was a lot less socially normal.  Religiously, it hadn't been made an issue, and personally, family was involved and that came first.

So I don't think my reply to the original poster was unkind.  He had explicitly made those comparisons, and in the process of trying to claim for himself the moral high ground.  I think I showed restraint, actually.

Puritans aka Protestants ... are by nature the less tolerant wing of Catholicism.  The more tolerant Catholics (aside from killing Protestants) remained Catholic.

[trdsf]

Puritans aka Protestants ... are by nature the less tolerant wing of Catholicism.  The more tolerant Catholics (aside from killing Protestants) remained Catholic.

And our parish priest at the time was probably just this side of being a Liberation Theology follower.  He later went on to head the diocesan ecumenical office.  I hope he did well there; I hope he's still doing well.  I still have enormous respect for him -- he was one of the few priests I knew who focused on the joy of life, and in his case, the joy of a religious life.  There are (or at least were) a few like that; I've been away so long, I don't know if they exist anymore.