The idea that "you send yourself to hell"

[josephpalazzo]

Can I buy a two-way ticket...oh wait...

[Baruch]

JosephPalazzo ... love your dynamic GIF.  But for this site, the horses should be Bronies and the horsemen should be Goth girls ;-)  Gotta be PC don't cha know ;-))

[josephpalazzo]

JosephPalazzo ... love your dynamic GIF.  But for this site, the horses should be Bronies and the horsemen should be Goth girls ;-)  Gotta be PC don't cha know ;-))

Naw, nothing beats the four horsemen of the apocalypse, as traditionally depicted in the bible (It's the words of God, it must be true)

[widdershins]

I believe that this is actually a New Testament thingy, most likely Revelations, I don't think the jews believe in a heaven...

You are correct.  I can't believe I said OT on that one.

[trdsf]

The only way you can send yourself somewhere is to openly and flatly choose to go there.  If you're going there because of someone else's rules, then you're not choosing, especially if those rules are supposed to apply to you even if you don't know about them.

How about the flip side of this: aren't christians only responding to bribery (the alleged promise of heaven) to do good deeds?

[doorknob]

I also think that is a tactic christians use to excuse their god for sending people to hell. But it doesn't wash because I'm pretty sure god created hell. It doesn't matter who sends you there it exists with the sole purpose of punishing and or tormenting.

[SoldierofFortune]

also, god has known ''in advance'' before we were born, that we will go to hell because of what we did in our lifetime.
it wrongly seems like we were sent there ourselves, because we have free-will and could do better things instead of lying, stealing, murdering, or of not brushing our teeths.

[Baruch]

also, god has known ''in advance'' before we were born, that we will go to hell because of what we did in our lifetime.
it wrongly seems like we were sent there ourselves, because we have free-will and could do better things instead of lying, stealing, murdering, or of not brushing our teeths.

In both Pauline and Augustinian theology ... the POV of eternity trumps the POV of temporality.  We only seem free because we don't know the future.  So in eternity ... justice is an illusion as is free will.  Things happened, are happening and will happen, just as they did, are doing, will do ... just like mathematics.  Paul and Augustine take their cue from Plato.

[widdershins]

In both Pauline and Augustinian theology ... the POV of eternity trumps the POV of temporality.  We only seem free because we don't know the future.  So in eternity ... justice is an illusion as is free will.  Things happened, are happening and will happen, just as they did, are doing, will do ... just like mathematics.  Paul and Augustine take their cue from Plato.

In the Jehovah's Witness faith God is all-knowing, but chooses not to know everything.  He could know everything, but he chooses to remain ignorant.  This is their way around God knowing an eternity before the day of creation which of his creations he would utterly destroy (there is no Hell for people as a Witness).

Which brings up an interesting philosophical thought.  Eternity would have to be utterly impossible.  Nothing could ever happen because an eternity would have to pass before it did.  If God existed for an eternity, with no beginning and no end, he would have had to have existed for an eternity before creation.  There would be an infinite amount of time before creation.  If you're waiting an infinite amount of time before you decide to create everything you would never make that decision because an infinite amount of time will never have passed.

[Baruch]

Even in mathematics ... people get messed up when they try to tackle infinities ;-)

[trdsf]

Which brings up an interesting philosophical thought.  Eternity would have to be utterly impossible.  Nothing could ever happen because an eternity would have to pass before it did.  If God existed for an eternity, with no beginning and no end, he would have had to have existed for an eternity before creation.  There would be an infinite amount of time before creation.  If you're waiting an infinite amount of time before you decide to create everything you would never make that decision because an infinite amount of time will never have passed.

That depends on whether time requires a universe of space and matter in order to exist, or if it has an existence independent of the universe.  I'm not sure that time has any meaning in an environment in which there are no objects to move and space to move them in, and in that case infinite time might be the same as no time at all.

[Baruch]

A circle is infinitely long ... because it has no beginning nor end.

[Blackleaf]

Every verse describing people going to Hell puts the action on God forcefully throwing people in:

Matthew 5:29 - "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

Matthew 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 23:3 - "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

Mark 9:45 - "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell."

Luke 12:5 - "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

2 Peter 2:4-10a - "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)â€"if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority."

Revelation 20:15 - "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Seems pretty clear to me that God is the one actively throwing people into Hell, not people themselves. God is the one who passes judgement, and anyone who isn't predestined by his will to be saved will be forcefully thrown into Hell. Even Christians who do not apply their beliefs to their daily lives will go to Hell, according to what the Bible teaches.

[Baruch]

Correct, but in pre-Protestant Christianity ... the Church trumps the Bible.  The faith is whatever the Church says it is.  So this particular belief, is part of the problem of evil in the world ... and making sure G-d isn't held responsible.

[widdershins]

Correct, but in pre-Protestant Christianity ... the Church trumps the Bible.  The faith is whatever the Church says it is.  So this particular belief, is part of the problem of evil in the world ... and making sure G-d isn't held responsible.

That is so true.  He can't even be given responsibility for creating evil or suffering because nobody wants to think of him as the creator of bad things, BUT he created everything...but evil, because Satan!