Surprise surprise. .another shooting

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I'm glad to still be around and I too tired hanging myself till I managed to pull myself up and hang on and get the rope off. I almost succeeded. Geeez. .I could make a list of failed attempts, but I don't see much use in it other than to warn people to not try it, but no matter if guns are outlawed, rope is outlawed, knives, poison, etc., if someone is bent on destroying themselves enough they'll find a way.
Personally for me I try to avoid pain and failed suicide is usually very painful in more ways than one. Waking up alive when you feel that the only alternative is to die is no picnic. I'd venture to guess that many suicides are people who regret it seconds before it's too late. Of course I have no way to prove that, but I've certainly been on the edge more than once full of regrets about even having to go to those extremes and before anyone thinks that I was seeking attention very few people ever knew about any of my attempts. They started when I was about 7 years old. Nobody knew about that until many years later when I actually remembered it.
I still have to say the one common theme to my survival has been my lack of owning a gun.

[baronvonrort]

I'm glad to still be around and I too tired hanging myself till I managed to pull myself up and hang on and get the rope off. I almost succeeded. Geeez. .I could make a list of failed attempts, but I don't see much use in it other than to warn people to not try it, but no matter if guns are outlawed, rope is outlawed, knives, poison, etc., if someone is bent on destroying themselves enough they'll find a way.

I still have to say the one common theme to my survival has been my lack of owning a gun.

If you ban one method suicidal people will try another,there are studies here that show substitution of method in Australia,fireams were the most common method which has been replaced by hanging.

You would be denied a firearm licence in Australia due to previous attempts at suicide,you would fail the mental health background check.

11.General restrictions on issue of licence
(4) Without limiting the generality of subsection 3,a licence must not be issued if-
(b) any previous attempt by the applicant to commit suicide or cause a self inflicted injury...
legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+46+1996+cd+0+N

In Australia a doctor-nurse or even a social worker can fill this form in if someone threatens suicide or harming others, the Police will then come around and confiscate any guns,firearms licence will be revoked.
www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/131155/S79_Notification_FACT_Sheet_-_March_2013.pdf

[Shiranu]

Cute.

Hanging accounts for around 56.2% of all suicides, in 2010 we had 2,478 suicides,before our gun laws we had around 2200-2300 suicides a year.

Again, you are not using statistics and percentages properly.

Australia's population before gun laws (using 1995, right as the laws were coming into play) was 18.07 million.
Australia's population "today" (2010, when you quoted) is 22.03 million.

The number of suicides in Australia, using your numbers, was 2250 (averaging). That comes out to 0.01245 of the population.
The number of suicides in Australia in 2010 were roughly 2,472 which is 0.01124.

So, even though the population is going up... the number of suicides are decreasing. And the number of people who shot themselves? Much, much lower.

----

Before moving on, lets pull out some peer-reviewed articles of our own, shall we?

http://web.a.ebscohost.com.libproxy.txstate.edu/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?sid=49eee9d1-bd6a-4d20-a342-13c5d92b9036%40sessionmgr4004&vid=9&hid=4201

The most comprehensive study into the effects of the reforms,81 conducted by Leigh and
Neill in 2010, found a 65% decline in the firearm homicide rate and a 59% decline in the
firearm suicide rate in the decade following the implementation of the NFA, with no parallel
increase in rates of non-firearm related homicides or suicides. 82 These authors also
demonstrated a strong causal relationship between the NFA and these declines. 83 Their
research showed that the NFA was responsible for a 36% decline in the firearm homicide rate
and a 74% decline in the firearm suicide rate.

In regards to separate articles "debunking" the gun laws...

In 2008, Lee and Suardi re-analysed the same data, using an alternative time-series approach
testing for unknown structural breaks as a means of identifying the impact of the NFA.91 The
authors found no evidence of a structural break around the time of the NFA and concluded,
therefore, that the reforms had not had any significant effects on firearm homicides or
suicides.92

Since their publication, both of these studies have been heavily criticised and shown to be
deeply methodologically flawed. 93 In an article entitled ‘How to Find Nothing’, David
Hemenway of the Harvard School of Public Health explained how limitations in the research
design of these studies made it impossible for the authors to reject the hypothesis that the
NFA had no effect.94 Therefore, on balance, it seems reasonable to reject the findings of these
studies in favour of those that demonstrated a clear correlation between the NFA and
subsequent declines in gun violence in Australia.

-HIRSH, LAUREN, Macquarie Law Journal. 2013, Vol. 12, p81-108. 28p.

Just thought I would throw that out there. There are also peer-reviewed articles about how global warming is a myth or how Jesus was, infact, the son of God. Putting peer-reviewed before it doesn't impress me when the vast majority of peer-reviewed work shows that article to be wrong.

Lots of hoplophobes claim our gun laws reduced suicides saving hundreds of lives,there is no reduction in dead bodies to justify their absurd claims

Again, lack of understanding of percentages. The percentage of suicides has gone down, when dealing with numbers these small, quite significantly. If I am doing my math correctly, it's an 11% decrease, and that is with unemployment rising (which increases the rate of suicides).

And hoplophobes? Really? I am a gun owner. I am not irrationally (or rationally) afraid of my guns, nor are the majority of people I know who are in favour of gun regulation.

If you are going to use appeals to pathos, have the numbers to warrant it. When you logically wrong, making emotional stabs only makes your position look that much shakier.

Why should I bother with a pissant apologist like you?

I wouldn't bother, honestly. Not until you actually have the numbers to back you up or edit your position to be factually based.

And apologist... again with the loaded language meant to stab at the emotion. Desperate.

[baronvonrort]

We reduced gun crimes in Australia while increasing legal ownership of firearms, in Australia more guns has resulted in less firearm crimes.

There were 640,000 guns bought back in 1996,in Victoria which had gun registration every semi auto centrefire had to be handed in they made a total of 3.2% of guns surrendered while rimfires accounted for 47% of all guns surrendered.

By mid 2012,following a steady 10 year upward trend in gun buying,Australians had restocked the national stockpile of private guns to pre pr Arthur levels,they did this by importing 1,055,082 firearms.
sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=10824

It's a myth we reduced guns in Australia, we currently have over 1 million firearm licences issued which is the highest number we have ever had.
Australia reduced gun crime while increasing gun ownership to it's highest ever levels.

Dr McPedran has cited numerous articles in this piece,even pointing out flaws in your cherry picked nonsense-
thebigsmoke.com.au/2014/10/20/Australia-firearms-evidence-really-tells-us

Suicides are increasing with women in Australia,an increase of 10% for each of the past 3 years,i thought our gun laws were supposed to reduce this,these women are not using guns so the hoplophobes will ignore this increase and cite studies from 10 years ago in blatant cherry picking to push their irrational fear of guns.
abc.net.au/news/2015-07-27/female-suicide-increasing--suicide-prevention-australia-reports/6650982

[SGOS]

If I ever did decide to take my life, a gun would be my method of choice.  This is not intended to be taken for or against the ownership issue.  It's simply the easiest way I could think of to dispatch myself. 

The pill route is too difficult.  Everyone thinks, "Hey what could be easier than taking an overdose?"  How does one get enough to make a massive dose of barbiturates from the doctor?  It's not that easy.  A gun, you just go and buy one, and no one has the slightest suspicion about why you are getting it.  You pull the trigger and it's over.  You don't have to tell lies to your doctor, and make up some strange insomnia problem for why you need pills.  No having to wait around for the pills to take effect while you sit on the pity pot, and think about how life dealt you a shitty hand.

It's easy to get a rope as it is to get a gun, but hanging?  No thanks!  I wouldn't be trying to punish myself and make myself suffer.  I'd just want to die.  Jumping off a building might be a thrill, and you also get to do it front of a bunch of on lookers, but I always thought jumpers were more like entertainers that wanted to give others a morbid thrill.

The absolute best way would be to have a competent medical team put you out of your misery in a setting of your choice.  But that's against the law, and requires a lot of paperwork, and I'm sure way too many personal questions about why I should receive that kind of treatment: Have you talked to a "shrink?"  Have you talked to your minister?  Have you talked to your family?  Fuck that.  Those assholes might be the reason I'd be killing myself to begin with.

Just go down to the gun shop, buy a gun, and take it home.  No muss, no fuss, no questions asked.  And much less planning than the other methods.  It's especially well suited for a spur of the moment impulse.

[Baruch]

Logic ... don't do things you can't take back.  Suicide tops the list of things you can't take back.  I don't blame anyone for suiciding, but it isn't logical ... particularly if it is a way to get back at society ... they don't care about you anyway.  But get out, make a few friends ... then someone will care even if you don't.

[baronvonrort]

If I ever did decide to take my life, a gun would be my method of choice.  This is not intended to be taken for or against the ownership issue.  It's simply the easiest way I could think of to dispatch myself. 

The gun grabbers like to claim suicides as gun violence-deaths to push their irrational fear of guns, the amusing thing is many of them are for voluntary euthanasia as long as you don't use a gun.

Phil Bolger took his own life because he didn't want to end up like previous generations in his family,i think it despicable people will use cases like his to push their agenda.
www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/reports/bolger/index.htm

[FaithIsFilth]

I don't think I can support the stance that there should be less guns around so less people would off themselves. That seems to be an anti-freedom stance to me.

Yeah, suicide help lines and family stepping in and helping is perfectly fine, but I would never say that I wished there were less guns around so people had less of a chance to exercise their freedom. I don't see how that is my place. Their body, their choice. Some of these people are doing the world a favour by checking out anyways.

[Mike Cl]

I don't think I can support the stance that there should be less guns around so less people would off themselves. That seems to be an anti-freedom stance to me.

Yeah, suicide help lines and family stepping in and helping is perfectly fine, but I would never say that I wished there were less guns around so people had less of a chance to exercise their freedom. I don't see how that is my place. Their body, their choice. Some of these people are doing the world a favour by checking out anyways.

So, are you also against seat belt laws?  How about smoking laws?  Would you be in favor of any laws that curtail any individual freedoms at all?

[Shiranu]

I would get into an argument about how non-terminal illness suicide isn't about control of your body, and effects yourself, your family, your friends, your employer, anyone who witnesses it/finds your body, is an economic drain, and so on, but really not in the mood.

If you have a reason to commit suicide, okay. If it's because your depressed, fuck your "right" to commit suicide, you are mentally ill.

[FaithIsFilth]

So, are you also against seat belt laws?  How about smoking laws?  Would you be in favor of any laws that curtail any individual freedoms at all?

What does any of that have to do with suicide? People not wearing a seat belt usually don't not wear it because they want to die badly. Seat belt laws need to be there to protect people that are nearby the person that chooses not to wear a belt. Seat belt laws are not only to protect the person wearing the belt, and this is not a person looking to kill themselves, so I don't see why you brought this up in the first place.

[Mike Cl]

What does any of that have to do with suicide? People not wearing a seat belt usually don't not wear it because they want to die badly. Seat belt laws need to be there to protect people that are nearby the person that chooses not to wear a belt. Seat belt laws are not only to protect the person wearing the belt, and this is not a person looking to kill themselves, so I don't see why you brought this up in the first place.

You said--I don't think I can support the stance that there should be less guns around so less people would off themselves. That seems to be an anti-freedom stance to me.

If this is a 'freedom' stance for you, would not wearing a seat belt be the same--a freedom stance?  Don't we have any number of laws that violate our freedoms for the safety of society in general?  So, for you gun ownership is a 'freedom' stance thing?

[Baruch]

Shiranu - sympathy with your reticence ... assisted termination of life of terminal patients ... is a rather difficult subject.  I think we can keep this to ... don't do something permanent over temporary depression or temporary illness.

[Feral Atheist]

Movie theaters are target rich gun free zones (most are posted). 

[FaithIsFilth]

You said--I don't think I can support the stance that there should be less guns around so less people would off themselves. That seems to be an anti-freedom stance to me.

If this is a 'freedom' stance for you, would not wearing a seat belt be the same--a freedom stance?  Don't we have any number of laws that violate our freedoms for the safety of society in general?  So, for you gun ownership is a 'freedom' stance thing?

No, wearing a seat belt is not the same. It's an extremely small inconvenience and should not be compared to gun laws or the Patriot Act or whatever.

If someone without a criminal record and who is not documented to be crazy buys a gun, and later kills themselves, I'm not going to say "Damned guns!". I'd rather this person have that option than be forced to go with a more painful option. If people are killing themselves in less painful ways, I really don't care that more of them are killing themselves. I'm not willing to say "I wish these people would have to use a more painful method, so a few of them would change their minds and not go through with it."

Yeah, lots of suicide attempts are regretted, but people regret lots of things. Women regret getting abortions. That's not a good argument against freedom for me. Families are devastated. Sure. Your family doesn't get to decide what you do with your freedom. Parents are devastated when they find out their kid is atheist. When they find out their kid has changed from Catholic to Protestant. When they find out their kid is gay. When they find out their kid is having an abortion. When they find out their kid has killed themself in an extremely painful manner, and can't at least be comforted by "at least it was quick and painless".

When it comes to guns, I don't want crazy people having them, but I don't support the banning of any types of assault rifles or anything like that either.