Odoital1778412, is he...............

[drunkenshoe]

Yes, Shoe, it is interesting.  I was never offended by Giveme (or anybody else on this board--not about anything.) but was irritated at first because he refused to exchange ideas.  He kept doing his shuffle and would never really respond.  After numerous PM's and many, many attempts to get him to engage on line, he simply refused.  And I still am not sure why.  So, I became irritated, then pissed--even called him a few names hoping that would irritate him enough that he would engage me.  Never offended by him--annoyed, yes.  Then when he still refused to engage, I simply ignored him from then on.

I didn't know you engaged him through PM.  But it seem slike he acted in consistency with his second coming of socrates gig and you acted like you generally do in the forum, as an open person. In this case, your position is more understandable to me.

The Cross is a different matter.  I wanted to keep him engaged until I could get to the basics of his 'facts'.  I simply wanted to figure out how the thought he 'thinks'.

Even he stayed longer, he wouldn't have let you. He strikes me as someone pretty much experienced with this. His position is not something he can prolong without repeating the same thing. He knows when to leave. He got that there is no chance here. A shield with a cross symbolises Crusades. 

I guess he really was here to 'turn' somebody.  But that is okay.  If his rhetoric can persuade, there is nothing I can do about that--I'm not the 'protector' of anybody on this forum--all can take care of themselves quite nicely.  I wanted to see in more detail where he came up with his ideas--these kinds of people interest me.  Knowing how they tick, the more easily one can expose their lack or, or faulty reasoning. 

Of course he was here to try his chance in converting people. Did he try to join in normal conversation and get in religious ones as they came up or just started to ask and answer questions in professional manner? More like doing his duty as a Christian.

Lol, no, I didn't think anyone in the forum was in danger of Odoital, I meant that people generally listen, some friendly old cop with life experience, someone from real life that can have a few beer rather than some dressed up official priest in a church in Sunday mornings. That's why I find him harmful. Human nature.

It's always the rhetoric that wins people, Mike.  Because that is the part that can adapt centuries and change, so made something into that can appeal to people, through lying, if it's all about them and their lives in the end. Nobody gives much damn about the rules of the religion or the parts that doesn't serve them. Community. 

But I still maintain his is not real religious rhetoric in the real sense. Rhetoric doesn't need a blatant lie to turn a phrase between 2 lines. It never works when talking to atheists, because it works on satisfying the audience. The audience is nonbelievers, how can you satisfy them? They talk about things like evidence and facts, empiric data. You can just pile some well expressed bullshit in 'historical terms' and make black and white simplified comparisons to use to fill between proselytising lines.

The only rhetoric you can attempt to make to atheists, and that is maaaaay be, would be something along the lines 'how religion can control most of the ignorant people' in primitive sociological function which someone in Odoital's position couldn't accept to reduce religion into. And that is easy to slap back.

I agree that Giveme is an idiot--and harmless to all but himself.  I deal with him by not dealing with him.  The Cross is much more dangerous.  So, for me I like to figure out how to nullify his particular danger--which is why I wanted to engage him in a discussion.  the Cross is frightening--giveme is not; frightening in that he is clearly insane, yet is not regarded as such--I would like to trace the source of his insanity more deeply.

There isn't much to do about Odoital type of people.

Let's trace. He is a cop. He is probably at a mature age, by that I mean not very young. His position in 'protect and serve' is compatible with his position as someone trying to spread God's word beyond an ordinary Christian. Probably there is a mutual feeding between those roles. He is at desk work. By nature of his job he probably sees kinda stuff ordinary people don't get to see even in a little place. Cops have their own tribes, like a parish. They look out for each other and people in their close circles. They have unwritten codes and rules and feel obliged to apply them, try to make people apply. Just like religion. Again a similar function with church... etc. He probably gets feed back to all his bullshit. That's probably how he started to do it.

I don't know. May be, he didn't leave and will come back. It's possible in his case in my opinion.

[drunkenshoe]

Its your fault

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Aka guilt transference

Taken to extremes in fundie cultures. In Mormonism "porn shoulders" short skirts etc.

Oh yes. But I think it is mostly about just women being women with religions. Not being men. I mean why are we women ffs? What do we mean by having pussies?!

In Islam even showing a woman's eyes can be too provocative, inciting men to lust. Feminism? Don't even go there. women are sinful lust machines and anything you do can incite men to sinful acts.

Yes, sir.

Odoital simply dismissed everything that didn't agree with his world view and that is exactly what theists do. The fact that every opposing source of proof he introduced came from Christian apologists is beside the point. The mere existence of it was sufficient to convince him of its legitimacy.

Yes, sir.

[Mike Cl]

I didn't know you engaged him through PM.  But it seem slike he acted in consistency with his second coming of socrates gig and you acted like you generally do in the forum, as an open person. In this case, your position is more understandable to me.


Even he stayed longer, he wouldn't have let you. He strikes me as someone pretty much experienced with this. His position is not something he can prolong without repeating the same thing. He knows when to leave. He got that there is no chance here. A shield with a cross symbolises Crusades. 

Yes, Shoe, I generally agree with you. 
Actually, on most things.
As for Giveme, on his second coming I was tired of him ignoring my quest for 'reasons' that I simply ignored him.  I didn't read much of what he said.
As for The Cross--yeah I think he would have continued to dance his dance.  I have met his type before in real life.  My wife's ex is a cop; and I taught in a juvenile hall and had a bit to do with cops in that capacity.  The union of religion and police is not always very pretty.  Cross is the type of guy I wouldn't mind having a cup of coffee with, discuss things and go as deep into religion as I would be allowed.  I could even be friendly with him, at least on the surface.  But I would never, ever trust him.  That would be like trusting a Christian business person--I just don't do it.  The more a person professes their religion and the more they have all the answers, the more I distrust them on a personal basis. 

[AllPurposeAtheist]

The scary part of this clown is he's in law enforcement which gives him ample opportunity to turn people who might be innocent of any crime,  but he has that power to arrest and jail someone then say, "By the way, if you turn your life over to my imaginary friend I can make the charges go away. Otherwise you could be looking at some serious time. You better get right with the zombie. ."

[Green Bottle]

I didnt bother wasting any time with him i was happy to sit back an watch u guys smash his walls down, while i stuffed my face wi  :popcorn:an had a few 

You never know, he might come back an try again...

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I didnt bother wasting any time with him i was happy to sit back an watch u guys smash his walls down, while i stuffed my face wi  :popcorn:an had a few 

You never know, he might come back an try again...

Yup, you're a sinner bound for H E double dirty Q-tips. .

[drunkenshoe]

The more a person professes their religion and the more they have all the answers, the more I distrust them on a personal basis.

I hear you. In my case, that can go pretty intense unfortunately. It's very difficult for me to respect religious people generally in the minimum, let alone trust them. I am not proud of it and I got better through years, I was far worse when I was younger, esp. at early 20s. I'm working on it, because I don't like it. It's prejudice. I have never been indoctrinated and grown up in a highly secular family, esp. with nonbeliver males that had a big influence on me since I was little. I can get extremely picky about people -men or women- one thing they say can ruin everything about them. It's fucking bullshit and I have to fight with this all the time. I hate that and I am working on it. I just have recently got rid of some of my prejudices against women in general in the last couple of years. I am still more prejudiced against religious women (esp. muslim women) than I am prejudiced against religious men of all religions. Because I don't get religious people in general, but esp. NOT women. And religious people do not make this easy either, esp. when they are too loud and doesn't matter how much I try to control myself, or be 'nice', if they want to get close to me, sooner or later I snap or ignore them from the beginning. I have come a long way though. My close circle knows everything about me, accepts me like that so that's not a problem. But when I meet new people...lol. So I think I can come off as arrogant often to people in general which they get that I am not, if they decide to look closer. I have been accused by hubris which makes me laugh, because it usually comes from the religious and the nationalists of all kinds. *Shakes head. Oh the irony.  

[Green Bottle]

Well in my opinion, any theist who comes here preaching, proselytising, or just generally being an arsehole deserves all the abuse he/she might get.
Most of my fellow Atheists on this forum can remain calm and collected while pointing out the flaws and falsehoods of their arguments, usually resulting in them eventually ''running away''.
But i easily lose my temper with these people so i prefer not to get heavily into it with them, because i would'nt want to get booted off my favourite forum....

[Mike Cl]

I hear you. In my case, that can go pretty intense unfortunately. It's very difficult for me to respect religious people generally in the minimum, let alone trust them. I am not proud of it and I got better through years, I was far worse when I was younger, esp. at early 20s. I'm working on it, because I don't like it. It's prejudice. I have never been indoctrinated and grown up in a highly secular family, esp. with nonbeliver males that had a big influence on me since I was little. I can get extremely picky about people -men or women- one thing they say can ruin everything about them. It's fucking bullshit and I have to fight with this all the time. I hate that and I am working on it. I just have recently got rid of some of my prejudices against women in general in the last couple of years. I am still more prejudiced against religious women (esp. muslim women) than I am prejudiced against religious men of all religions. Because I don't get religious people in general, but esp. NOT women. And religious people do not make this easy either, esp. when they are too loud and doesn't matter how much I try to control myself, or be 'nice', if they want to get close to me, sooner or later I snap or ignore them from the beginning. I have come a long way though. My close circle knows everything about me, accepts me like that so that's not a problem. But when I meet new people...lol. So I think I can come off as arrogant often to people in general which they get that I am not, if they decide to look closer. I have been accused by hubris which makes me laugh, because it usually comes from the religious and the nationalists of all kinds. *Shakes head. Oh the irony.

Very interesting.  I seem to be developing in the opposite direction. :)  As I grow older I become less and less accepting.  As a child I regarded religious people as being 'better' than the average guy.  I was born and raised in a secular family, both immediate and grandparents and aunts, uncles and cousins.  So, not sure why I had a high regard for the religious.  But then, I also trusted our govt., so I guess I was just all kinds of gullible. :)  I have only recently (within the last few years) and the older I get--and maybe this has a little to do with it--the more I study the issue of religion, the more I distrust the very religious.  But I don't think of it as prejudice--just an understanding of the facts. I do not go out of my way to do this, but if asked about religion I'll answer truthfully, and if that pisses people off, tough shit!  And as I age I also like my lone wolf skin better and better--so if some of the religious get upset over my thoughts--or if the non-religious do, as well--well, simply 'fuck them!'  So, Shoe, we seem to be developing in the opposite direction.  Just remember to stop becoming too accommodating.  :))  A touch of arrogance (self confidence) and prickly attitude can go along way. 

[GSOgymrat]

I find Odoital interesting in respect that he really knows about Christianity. He has obviously spent a lot of time thinking about his beliefs and I respect that but the more he writes the less convincing I find his arguments.

One night I was seeing an elderly woman in the emergency room who had struggled with depression her entire life. She had multiple somatic complaints attributed by the MD to stress. She had taken care of people all her whole life and now those people had died-- her husband, her children-- and she felt lonely and was grieving. Her Christian faith was the thing that kept her going. She said she would never kill herself because she wanted to be reunited with her family and believed if she took her own life that wouldn't happen. Even though her family was gone she still had God and that gave her comfort. She still needed help but she wasn't completely without hope. The story of her life really moved me.

Then I came into my office and read one of Odoital's complicated rationalizations. This woman made a more convincing case for Christianity then anything ever written on this forum. For me, Christians fail when they try to provide proof of the Bible or God. Many Christian seem to have the idea that atheist are rational people and therefore will be convinced by a rational argument. When they appeal to logic and reason they lose every time and the more they try, the more they intellectualize, the less I believe them.

[Munch]

Pretty much the same way here Mike. I didn't grow up in a religous household, I wasn't read stories about god or jesus, but when I learned about it from school and asked my mum, she told me in vague detail about it. I simply thought god was real because everyone else did as I grew up.
I use to look at people who talked about religion and god and jesus and believed what they said, about following its rules and not sinning, and when someone talked about god, like my aunt or a friend of the family or someone at school, back then I thought these were knowledgeable people to look up to.

I think the fact I realized I was gay and opening up myself to who I was, despite fears of coming out and how it would be seen by others, once I did, I began to notice things, I think it really was when I noticed how religious people looked at people like me, and said god hated my kind and all gays would burn in hell. That got the ball rolling into realizing this rhetoric I thought for years meant something, all it was turned out to be just the ignorance of people twisting and distorting reality to suit their shallow, hollow, and fearful existence.

Being gay made me realize what utter shit all religions are, and the people who follow it living in fear of a life that isn't governed by it, I stopped looking at them like people to respect, and just found pity for them. When someone is injured or needs help moving something or crossing a road, I step up and help them, because they acknowledge they have a problem to overcome. The religious, they have a problem but will never realize it, and they can't be helped if they are that far ingrained in it.

The only person who can help someone put aside the cancerous tumor that is religion, is themselves.

[SGOS]

Then I came into my office and read one of Odoital's complicated rationalizations. This woman made a more convincing case for Christianity then anything ever written on this forum. For me, Christians fail when they try to provide proof of the Bible or God. Many Christian seem to have the idea that atheist are rational people and therefore will be convinced by a rational argument. When they appeal to logic and reason they lose every time and the more they try, the more they intellectualize, the less I believe them.

At times I've felt that their best argument is, "I can't prove it.  It's not logical.  I just have faith that it's true."  The first two sentences signal that they know what you are looking for, and the last one just avoids reason altogether in favor of faith.  There is really nothing more to debate.  They have taken reason off the table.   It's time to go our separate ways.

[Munch]

At times I've felt that their best argument is, "I can't prove it.  It's not logical.  I just have faith that it's true."  The first two sentences signal that they know what you are looking for, and the last one just avoids reason altogether in favor of faith.  There is really nothing more to debate.  They have taken reason off the table.   It's time to go our separate ways.

but, and heres a thought, if he really felt that way, if he was so content in his own beliefs and conceded in himself it doesn't matter whats said he still believes in it all... why did it make an account on an atheist forum and use it to debate with atheists? If he was so adjusted in his beliefs, what was the point of him even coming here?

[Mike Cl]

At times I've felt that their best argument is, "I can't prove it.  It's not logical.  I just have faith that it's true."  The first two sentences signal that they know what you are looking for, and the last one just avoids reason altogether in favor of faith.  There is really nothing more to debate.  They have taken reason off the table.   It's time to go our separate ways.

So, true.

[Mike Cl]

but, and heres a thought, if he really felt that way, if he was so content in his own beliefs and conceded in himself it doesn't matter whats said he still believes in it all... why did it make an account on an atheist forum and use it to debate with atheists? If he was so adjusted in his beliefs, what was the point of him even coming here?

To reap souls for the lawrd.  Didn't ya know that that is a way to curry favor in heaven--sort of like collecting Green Stamps. Or Brownie Points.