Odoital1778412, is he...............

[SGOS]

but, and heres a thought, if he really felt that way, if he was so content in his own beliefs and conceded in himself it doesn't matter whats said he still believes in it all... why did it make an account on an atheist forum and use it to debate with atheists? If he was so adjusted in his beliefs, what was the point of him even coming here?

Yep, he's collecting coupons.

[Munch]

To reap souls for the lawrd.  Didn't ya know that that is a way to curry favor in heaven--sort of like collecting Green Stamps. Or Brownie Points.

ah yes, he came as a savor to all us heathens, of course.

[trdsf]

At least he wasn't an asshole.

Well, maybe a little bit of one, but easily tolerably so, I thought, and no more so than I have been in reply.

I was pleased to be able to deal with someone capable of communicating in complete, grammatical, and correctly spelled sentences.  I just wish he'd've not been so ready to deploy the straw man at nearly every opportunity -- you don't get to decide what your opponent in a debate says, unless you can make the direct logical inference from the words on the table.

[SGOS]

At least he wasn't an asshole.

Well, maybe a little bit of one,

Who isn't at times?

[Odoital778412]

gone???  If so, I guess we could say he was a delayed drive-by.  Came on, tried to recruit, failed, and bailed.  Not really surprised.  I must admit I am a little disappointed.  Would have liked to mine down to some of his bedrock ideas and figure out how he got them.  I think the clue is that he told us he gave himself to Jesus at 3.  Don't the religious thinkers tell us that if they can have a child til 6, they will keep them as adults?  Then what he said was looking for answers or actual studying of the issues, was really a search for 'spiritual armor'--searching for the 'correct' christian answers, not actual facts.  And answers for his particular brand of Christianity (whatever that is) vs all other brands of woo.  He seemed to have a decent temperament, but he gave up too easily. :)  Maybe he isn't a drive-by--just getting more gas.

No, I just don't always have time to be here.  I come when I can, but I have a job, a family, and the necessity to sleep at least once a day.  My apologies if I gave you the impression that I simply left, but I think the disappointment could have waited more than a couple of days.  If I'm gone for 2 weeks, I've give you a bit more slack, but 2 or 3 days...REALLY?

Additionally, I'm not attempting to recruit anyone for anything.  I'm simply interacting and dialoguing about issues with the intent of giving people something legitimate to think about.  And yeah, if someone moves a bit closer to belief, that's certainly positive.  But my goals are modest.

It's good to know how everyone feels though.  I feel compelled to point out that if someone comes in here and leaves, it may have more to do with the kinds of comments made about me after an absence of only a few days, as well as the general hostility and condescension that seems to fill every comment, than it would have to do with anything else.  I expect this kind of feeling, so it doesn't impact me like it would most, but no honest person will tell you that it makes no difference at all.

[drunkenshoe]

So, Shoe, we seem to be developing in the opposite direction.  Just remember to stop becoming too accommodating.  :))  A touch of arrogance (self confidence) and prickly attitude can go along way.

Me? Accomodating? No. Mike, you got me wrong. (There aren't any religious people around me or in the community I live that religion would be a daily conversation.) I don't even know anyone wearing head scarf, or praying daily namaz. See, I have grown up with great prejudice against certain kind of people; nationalists, religious, traditional people, all goverments and states; the very concepts, since I was a little kid.


I want to share some things with you. My 'education' started with my mother at a very early age. She is a philosophy teacher and I had the chance of listening history of philosophy, history and literature like listening fairy tales from her and when I got older, from my father -he is a chemical engineer- I got reading on popular science -he brought home popular science books that has been translated from other languages and magazines of the sort. Also, I couldn't read them in English and he could that was also an important motivation in learning language and reading. Both parents are reading, there is a library at the house full of books. My parents were really good at all that which I can only get now. They never forced me or my sister. They allured and made us love knowledge and inspiration, being curious. 'Dad, who is that man, why are you reading this?' His name is Richard Feynman, this one is Heisenberg, other one is Faraday. They are very important, because they are scientists'. A child should hear this. Or from my mother 'Once upon a time in a Greek city there lived a man called Thales who loved water very much...and another one who loved fire...then comes this crazy little old man called Socrates and says' I was like  or  but most of the time . I was around 9-10 when that started. There was nothing here, don't forget. No internet, little tv channels. When I got to high school, I was dissapointed by the education, although now I know, it was well above average and I only liked studying English, its literature and a bit American. When I turned 19, the country I have lived in and its place in the world was already explained to me. I had the basic knowledge to learn more and judge for myself. I have always been ALONE in this with my peers at that time in this country. Now they are more lucky. Not then. None of my friends were like me and looking down starts there. (I said I wanted to be an art historian. They said, 'OK, but it is a luxury in this country and academy will dissapoint you more.' I studied art history and became an research assistant. Then quit after a decade.) It was the same in univ. I was the only one who learned about the subjects before hand, can read from other language, who didn't have any religious education. That makes you arrogant without even you know it.

[One vivid memory of a conversation about religion in general with my dad was the things he said when he saw me going through the Bible. I was around 13 I guess. I get now that he felt uncomfortable. He talked about Abrahamic religions and how they look at women, and said that all religions are based on same principles. I remember saying, 'but Buddhism?' and he asked me 'Have you ever seen a female Buddhist monk? How are the people living those regions? So yes including Budhhism. They are ALL the same. Read the old texts and look at it without contrasting it with the others. Other than that I don't remember any active intervention.]

Now, this is important. How that arrogance broke. Conscience, empathy. Because from the moment I stepped in the university, the real education started. I have met with people from every corner of the country. And the country I live in, truely the border between East and West. The land of the opposites. As I studied history, anthropology, sociology, cultural history, I realised the problem of religion is entirely something else than its scripture and its rules. When you are young the fresh knowledge doesn't really change you suddenly and it is just theory. Esp. some one like me who already has raised with great prejudice against religion and nationalism, started ahead in the mental frame. I have always looked down on those people even though I know most of the time they didn't have any other choice.

Mike, when I was in the 2nd grade univ, I met tons of people -my peers- who has never been to a museum, cinema, theatre or an opera, a classical music concert, to a seaside vacation, grew up in a household without one book. I barely remember doing most of these things the first time.

Two specific moments among many others had great influence on me. The first ones. Second year in the univ. One day, eating in the lunch hall, while looking around I realised that people ate too much bread -I had noticed that before, but didn't know why, it was weird to me- because they didn't eat enough at home. The majority. I got stunned. Knowing there are people in that position and realising it with a real result by yourself is very different. Again the same year, I snapped at a class mate for reflexively taking a picture of a sarcophagus with flash in a museum at a lesson and afterwards talked about it in class when it came up related to something; how is it that possible that someone didn't know you shouldn't do that?! She burst in to tears and left the class, she was embarrassed, she had no idea and she got excited to see it. SHE HAD NEVER BEEN IN A MUSEUM BEFORE THAT IN HER LIFE. She was Kurdish and came from an obscure area in the land. (I followed her out to the class room, she cried, then we talked about it and then also later, she explained that all to me, she felt shame I have felt like a piece of shit as I should. Then we became good friends and she is now an academic in a good university.) 

Those two moments of my life are very important to me, I'll never forget them. They pushed me down from the craddle of being a daughter of two people who were highly intelligent, had high education, had the luxury of falling in love, enjoy their lives, planing to have children, loving them insanely, nurturing them every way possible -may be a bit too much- treating them with respect as individuals all their lives. As opposed to majority of the people, who survived randomly in some godforsaken place with 7 other siblings, practically had nothing, treated like garbage, oppressed, repressed, seen as family property by their parents or even in a better socio-economical state, being pushed to grow like a tree without anything.   

People are people everywhere, we are who we are because of a random birth in random a family, random country. I was just lucky. I didn't deserve it, neither worked for it, nor made a choice for it. It's just fucking luck. Random.There is very little choice, very little free will and most people in the world CANNOT afford that. I refuse to have that prejudice, look down on religious people in general because of that. I know where do the most of them come from.

All my life, I have learned very well that in theoretical-academic sense and in practical daily life THAT religion, problem of religion in individual level, in societal level, in political level, domestic or intrenational HAS NOTHING to do with scripture, knowing scripture, fucking holy books or rules they bring. They are just the bureaucracy. It's always the same causes or reasons why people chose to be religious consciously or on unconsciously in some Western country or in a Middle Eastern one. The fucking differences between two opposite cultures are caused by the same anthropological principles. Everything going on around us can be explained by social sciences and religion itself is just a little dot of means in it.

Rational, reasonable explanations. And so NO, Odoital is not interesting for me. He is just harmful to the society he lives in. He had a hunger for 'knowledge' and he chose a made up bullshit to promote his existence. The more a religious person knows about scripture and using it, the more their ignorant ego and selfishness is. Still he is what he is. He is deluded. Mentally handicapped in a way. I am not looking down on him, I feel annoyed by him.

You know who shall I look down on? People who claim to be nonbeliever sceptics and free thinkers, following every hard science development and brag about it against religion, but cannot be bothered to read about or put their minds in simple explanations on what is going on around them in social scienctific terms and claim/defend their simple minded, one sided, biased, ignorant vision of the world. People who refuse to build a historical perspective or a clear judgement about their own culture, country and nation, while they have every opportunity and the intelligence to do so. But can only look at things as black and white, as a side, like supporting a football team; living in their nationalism, convictions; warm high level delusion. And when you try to engage with them, explain a part of this rationally with examples, with sources, they act like children or the scorned believers. And blame you with arrogance, tell you that you are biased. Oh the irony! They are mostly atheists and I will look down on them.

I can forgive a religous or a theist for being blind and wilfully ignorant. That's the base of their existence, if they could get over it, they wouldn't be what they are. I won't certainly accomodate him, but I will 'accept' him. However, I refuse to accept anyone who claims to be sceptic, enlightened and doing the same thing without religion or god, esp. when they have the intelligence or the opportunity. Inexcusable.  Annoys me far more than religious bullshit. 

So No. I am not accomodating in the slightest, my beef is with the so called 'enlightened', not with the religious. Because there is no shortage of blood at the sceptics' side, but just shortage of blood supply.

[Mike Cl]

No, I just don't always have time to be here.  I come when I can, but I have a job, a family, and the necessity to sleep at least once a day.  My apologies if I gave you the impression that I simply left, but I think the disappointment could have waited more than a couple of days.  If I'm gone for 2 weeks, I've give you a bit more slack, but 2 or 3 days...REALLY?

Additionally, I'm not attempting to recruit anyone for anything.  I'm simply interacting and dialoguing about issues with the intent of giving people something legitimate to think about.  And yeah, if someone moves a bit closer to belief, that's certainly positive.  But my goals are modest.

It's good to know how everyone feels though.  I feel compelled to point out that if someone comes in here and leaves, it may have more to do with the kinds of comments made about me after an absence of only a few days, as well as the general hostility and condescension that seems to fill every comment, than it would have to do with anything else.  I expect this kind of feeling, so it doesn't impact me like it would most, but no honest person will tell you that it makes no difference at all.

Sorry if I misread you so badly.  My apologies.  In my defense, I am simply not used to a Christian being civil and willing to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion.  So, apparently, you are of that kind.  Most refreshing.  So, in today's vernacular--my bad!

If you are so inclined, we were in the middle of several discussions.  I had posted replies and await your response.  If you still care to do that.

[Mike Cl]

Me? Accomodating? No. Mike, you got me wrong. (There aren't any religious people around me or in the community I live that religion would be a daily conversation.) I don't even know anyone wearing head scarf, or praying daily namaz. See, I have grown up with great prejudice against certain kind of people; nationalists, religious, traditional people, all goverments and states; the very concepts, since I was a little kid.


I want to share some things with you. My 'education' started with my mother at a very early age. She is a philosophy teacher and I had the chance of listening history of philosophy, history and literature like listening fairy tales from her and when I got older, from my father -he is a chemical engineer- I got reading on popular science -he brought home popular science books that has been translated from other languages and magazines of the sort. Also, I couldn't read them in English and he could that was also an important motivation in learning language and reading. Both parents are reading, there is a library at the house full of books. My parents were really good at all that which I can only get now. They never forced me or my sister. They allured and made us love knowledge and inspiration, being curious. 'Dad, who is that man, why are you reading this?' His name is Richard Feynman, this one is Heisenberg, other one is Faraday. They are very important, because they are scientists'. A child should hear this. Or from my mother 'Once upon a time in a Greek city there lived a man called Thales who loved water very much...and another one who loved fire...then comes this crazy little old man called Socrates and says' I was like  or  but most of the time . I was around 9-10 when that started. There was nothing here, don't forget. No internet, little tv channels. When I got to high school, I was dissapointed by the education, although now I know, it was well above average and I only liked studying English, its literature and a bit American. When I turned 19, the country I have lived in and its place in the world was already explained to me. I had the basic knowledge to learn more and judge for myself. I have always been ALONE in this with my peers athat time in this country. Now they are more lucky. Not then. None of my friends were like me and looking down starts there. (I said I wanted to be an art historian. They said, 'OK, but it is a luxury in this country and academy will dissapoint you more.' I studied art history and became an research assistant. Then quit after a decade.) It was the same in univ. I was the only one who learned about the subjects before hand, can read from other language, who didn't have any religious education. That makes you arrogant without even you know it.

[One vivid memory of a conversation about religion in general with my dad was the thing she said when he saw me going through the Bible. I was around 13 I guess. I get now that he felt uncomfortable. He talked about Abrahamic religions and how they look at women, and said that all religions are based on same principles. I remember saying, 'but Buddhism?' and he asked me 'Have you ever seen a female Buddhist monk? How are the people living those regions? So yes including Budhhism. They are ALL the same. Read the old texts and look at it without contrasting it with the others. Other than that I don't remember any active intervention.]

Now, this is important. How that arrogance broke. Conscience, empathy. Because from the moment I stepped in the university, the real education started. I have met with people from every corner of the country. And the country I live in, truely the border between East and West. The land of the opposites. As I studied history, anthropology, sociology, cultural history, I realised the problem of religion is entirely something else than its scripture and its rules. When you are young the fresh knowledge doesn't really change you suddenly and it is just theory. Esp. some one like me who already has raised with great prejudice against religion and nationalism, started ahead in the mental frame. I have always looked down on those people even though I know most of the time they didn't have any other choice.

Mike, when I was in the 2nd grade univ, I met tons of people -my peers- who has never been to a museum, cinema, theatre or an opera, a classical music concert, to a seaside vacation, grew up in a household without one book. I barely remember doing most of these things the first time.

Two specific moments among many others had great influence on me. The first ones. Second year in the univ. One day, eating in the lunch hall, while looking around I realised that people ate too much bread -I had noticed that before, but didn't know why, it was weird to me- because they didn't eat enough at home. The majority. I got stunned. Knowing there are people in that position and realising a real result by yourself is very different. Again the same year, I snapped at a class mate for reflexively taking a picture of a sarcophagus with flash in a museum at a lesson and afterwards talked about it in class when it came up related to something; how is it that possible that someone didn't know you shouldn't do that?! She burst in to tears and left the class, she was embarrassed, she had no idea and she got excited to see it. SHE HAD NEVER BEEN IN A MUSEUM BEFORE THAT IN HER LIFE. She was Kurdish and came from an obscure area in the land. (I followed her out to the class room, she cried, then we talked about it and then also later, she explained that all to me, she felt shame I have felt like a piece of shit as I should. Then we became good friends and she is now an academic in a good university.) 

Those two moments of my life are very important to me, I'll never forget them. They pushed me down from the craddle of being a daughter of two people who were highly intelligent, had high education, had the luxury of falling in love, enjoy their lives, planing to have children, loving them insanely, nurturing them every way possible -may be a bit too much- treating them with respect as individuals all their lives. As opposed to majority of the people, who survived randomly in some godforsaken place with 7 other siblings, practically had nothing, treated like garbage, oppressed, repressed, seen as family property by their parents or even in a better socio-economical state, being pushed to grow like a tree without anything.   

People are people everywhere, we are who we are because of a random birth in random a family, random country. I was just lucky. I didn't deserve it, neither worked for it, nor made a choice for it. It's just fucking luck. Random.There is very little choice, very little free will and most people in the world CANNOT afford that. I refuse to have that prejudice, look down on religious people in general because of that. I know where do the most of them come from.

All my life, I have learned very well that in theoretical-academic sense and in practical daily life THAT religion, problem of religion in individual level, in societal level, in political level, domestic or intrenational HAS NOTHING to do with scripture, knowing scripture, fucking holy books or rules they bring. They are just the bureaucracy. It's always the same causes or reasons why people chose to be religious consciously or on unconsciously in some Western country or in a Middle Eastern one. The fucking differences between two opposite cultures are caused by the same anthropological principles. Everything going on around us can be explained by social sciences and religion itself is just a little dot of means in it.

Rational, reasonable explanations. And so NO, Odoital is not interesting for me. He is just harmful to the society he lives in. He had a hunger for 'knowledge' and he chose a made up bullshit to promote his existence. The more a religious person knows about scripture and using it, the more their ignorant ego and selfishness is. Still he is what he is. He is deluded. Mentally handicapped in a way. I am not looking down on him, I feel annoyed by him.

You know who shall I look down on? People who claim to be nonbeliever sceptics and free thinkers, following every hard science development and brag about it against religion, but cannot be bothered to read about or put their minds in simple explanations on what is going on around them in social scienctific terms and claim/defend their simple minded, one sided, biased, ignorant vision of the world. People who refuse to build a historical perspective or a clear judgement about their own culture, country and nation, while they have every opportunity and the intelligence to do so. But can only look at things as black and white, as a side, like supporting a football team; living in their nationalism, convictions; warm high level delusion. And when you try to engage with them, explain a part this rationally with examples with sources, they act like children or the scorned believers. And blame you with arrogance, tell you that you are biased. Oh the irony! They are mostly atheists and I will look down on them.

I can forgive an religous or a theist for being blind and wilfully ignorant. That's the base of their existence, if they could get over it, they wouldn't be what they are. I won't certainly accomodate him, but I will 'accept' him. However, I refuse to accept anyone who claims to be sceptic, enlightened and doing the same thing without religion or god, esp. when they have the intelligence or the opportunity. Inexcusable.  Annoys me far more than religious bullshit. 

So No. I am not accomodating in the slightest, my beef is with the so called 'enlightened', not with the religious. Because there is no shortage of blood at the sceptics' side, but just shortage of blood supply.

Wow--quite a post, Shoe.  Thanks for explaining all that.  I must admit that I admire your parents.  They would be exceptional no matter in what culture or geographical area they lived in.  I tried to emulate many of the traits they showed to you.  My parents were not that educated.  My mother was a housewife, but a rather remarkable one.  She had 6 boys to raise and in that time frame, that is what a mother did--raise the children.  But she did teach us to treat others as yourself; respect others and their property.  To be honest and fair--always.  My dad was a govt. worker.  Which represented a long journey--he was from a cotton mill town in Texas and grew up with a pair of alcoholic parents.  He did not graduate from HS--then he was drafted into the Army in WWII.  He got his GED (HS Diploma) in the Army and met and married my mom.  He continued to study the rest of his life and finally made it to a fairly high rank in the govt.   He loved to read, and even tho he did not read to us, he passed that love on to me.  Goe was never discussed in our house.  To this day I'm still not sure if he believed in one or not.  I think not, but could be wrong.  Mom finally ended up not believing in any god; but she treated all the same--the godly and the godless.  She judged them all with regard to what they did, not what they said, so much.  She would go to a church every now and again to either be part of a group that did community service or accompanying a friend who wanted her to go that particular time.  She was very active in the community, very interested in the world.  She grew up speaking Swedish and only changed to English when she went to school.  So, she was aware of how different people can be handicapped in different ways.  Each was different.  And so, when I became a parent, I tried to emulate the loving and caring of others that my mom displayed and the effort to make oneself better and the love of reading from my dad.  And I tried to awaken in my daughter those things, and the wonder of the world by exploring nature, science, history and the like with her.  I read to her every evening--and I tried to always read something that would be just on the outer edge of her ability to comprehend.  I did tried to educate her to religion and what they were--but I allowed her to explore that area on her own, answering questions only if she had them.  One thing that is of the utmost importance, that both sets of parents were well aware of, was one has to have contact with and be involved and interested in their children's lives.  I tried to be that kind of parent.

As for me and religion, I became interested in it because I was curious.  Neither parent told me what to believe.  When I got to college I began a historical study of religions.  I realized at that time there was much to hate.  But the more deeply I studied it I realized that was only partly true.  I grew to realize, as you so well stated, that a person's belief depends upon the when and where of birth, not the rightness of that belief.  I also divide religion into to parts.  The religious, who are simply people trying to get along day-to-day as best they can, are simply people.  All people are the same--they want to have a family, provide for that family, work at what they want to work at, and play at what they want to play at.  That is the same everywhere and everywhen.  The other part of religion is the heinous part.  The hierarchy, the leaders who use scripture to control people, to gather power and maintain it.  They are the popes of the world, the Pat Robertsons, the Joel Osteens, the Billy Grahams, and all other religious leaders of all religions.  They don't follow scriptures, but use them as tools to keep the flock in check.  That's the part I hate.  I hate the hierarchy of all religions.  The vast majority of people in this world are simply good-hearted people trying to make a living.  For the most part, they use the golden rule despite what their religion officially teaches. 

I don't see that you were ever arrogant.  I think maybe, you had a bias about some things because of your upbringing.  Your parents tried to pass on what they thought were good values.  (And I think they were correct), and so you saw the world in a certain way.  You chided that girl who took the picture because she misused something you valued--in your eyes.  You had not experienced the world through her eyes, and so could not know how she viewed that museum.   You fought for your value.  An arrogant person would have left it at that with maybe a curt--'Well you should have known!' , and left it at that.  But you heard the anguish of that person with your heart and reached out to her.  That is not arrogance.   That is a bias being broken, you were willing to listen to another person.  We all go through life with bias'; that helps us make our way without evaluating every single step we take--it's a tool that helps us get through the day faster and easier.  Some allow that bias to turn to prejudice and makes us blind to how the others in our lives feel.  Bias' can be broken easily when on stops and thinks or something happens that kind of slaps us in the face with what we are doing--as when you saw the hurt in the girl you chided.  Prejudice allows one to say something like--'All people of color are mud people and are not really people.'  Arrogance would allow you to keep feeling that way no matter what---for it is your right.  I see you as an emphatic person, not arrogant.  You can also be impatient.  And you don't like ignorance in anybody.  Especially when that ignorance can be dispelled with a little effort on the part of the other. 

If I look down on anybody, it is the hierarchy of each religion--they know what they do.  Something I regard as a bit ironic is that I see people, in their heart of hearts, as being good.  If given a choice of doing somebody harm or somebody good, they will choose good.  (Yes there are some exceptions, but not as many as some what to think)  The irony?  People like Odoital believe people, in their heart of hearts are bad and will chose to sin because they cannot help it. 

I appreciate your viewpoint on this forum, because I like the way you think.  And that you are able to view my country from afar and from a different culture.  In many ways that allows you to see things in quite a different light, and at times, more clearly.  Thanks for sharing about your parents.  They did well--look how you turned out! :)  And something I had to come to terms with with my daughter.  She came from me, but she is her own person.  As a parent I can try to pass along what I value, but at the end of the day, she is her own free agent.  She makes up her own mind.  All I could hope for was to make the ground fertile; she chose what to grow.  She is different than I--and I celebrate that difference.  One of the pieces of literature that I refereed to all the time was a poem by Khalil Gibran, Of Children.  I still read it (and him) all the time.  That is irony, isn't it?--an atheist who loves a Christian poet!  So, you were born of your parents, but at all times, you were a free agent, following your own heart and developing as you chose.  I think you have done a good job so far. :)

[Odoital778412]

Sorry if I misread you so badly.  My apologies.  In my defense, I am simply not used to a Christian being civil and willing to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion.  So, apparently, you are of that kind.  Most refreshing.  So, in today's vernacular--my bad!

If you are so inclined, we were in the middle of several discussions.  I had posted replies and await your response.  If you still care to do that.

Not to worry.  I'm not actually upset.  I'm a little taken aback by the fact that it only took a couple of days for people to turn on me so quickly, but it's really not a big deal.  I appreciate your willingness to continue the discussion as well, and I'll get to your replies, as I can.  Thanks in advance for your patience!

[Johan]

No, I just don't always have time to be here.  I come when I can, but I have a job, a family, and the necessity to sleep at least once a day.  My apologies if I gave you the impression that I simply left, but I think the disappointment could have waited more than a couple of days.  If I'm gone for 2 weeks, I've give you a bit more slack, but 2 or 3 days...REALLY?

Well you have to understand that we get a lot of drive-bys here. A lot. Like a ton. They show up for a few days, get a few threads of debate going and active and then simply disappear. Extremely common around here.

[Mike Cl]

I remembered the title of this poem wrong it is 'On Children" not 'Of Children'.  I love this poem and it does carry much meaning for me.  I am able to subtract the 'god' factor 'The Archer' and understand that concept as simply life striving for life or the legacy of our evolution and dna.  Anyway, here it is by Khalil Gibran

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

[Munch]

Fact of the matter is, you stormed in here with long posts like a street preacher, without so much as an introduction as to why you decided to make an account here, and then to took a short break from the huge wall sized posts just like that.

And then you wondered why people jumped right on saying you were a flyby preacher? Only got yourself to blame for that.

[drunkenshoe]

Wow--quite a post, Shoe.  Thanks for explaining all that.  I must admit that I admire your parents.  They would be exceptional no matter in what culture or geographical area they lived in.  I tried to emulate many of the traits they showed to you.  My parents were not that educated.  My mother was a housewife, but a rather remarkable one.  She had 6 boys to raise and in that time frame, that is what a mother did--raise the children.  But she did teach us to treat others as yourself; respect others and their property.  To be honest and fair--always.  My dad was a govt. worker.  Which represented a long journey--he was from a cotton mill town in Texas and grew up with a pair of alcoholic parents.  He did not graduate from HS--then he was drafted into the Army in WWII.  He got his GED (HS Diploma) in the Army and met and married my mom.  He continued to study the rest of his life and finally made it to a fairly high rank in the govt.   He loved to read, and even tho he did not read to us, he passed that love on to me.  Goe was never discussed in our house.  To this day I'm still not sure if he believed in one or not.  I think not, but could be wrong.  Mom finally ended up not believing in any god; but she treated all the same--the godly and the godless.  She judged them all with regard to what they did, not what they said, so much.  She would go to a church every now and again to either be part of a group that did community service or accompanying a friend who wanted her to go that particular time.  She was very active in the community, very interested in the world.  She grew up speaking Swedish and only changed to English when she went to school.  So, she was aware of how different people can be handicapped in different ways.  Each was different.  And so, when I became a parent, I tried to emulate the loving and caring of others that my mom displayed and the effort to make oneself better and the love of reading from my dad.  And I tried to awaken in my daughter those things, and the wonder of the world by exploring nature, science, history and the like with her.  I read to her every evening--and I tried to always read something that would be just on the outer edge of her ability to comprehend.  I did tried to educate her to religion and what they were--but I allowed her to explore that area on her own, answering questions only if she had them.  One thing that is of the utmost importance, that both sets of parents were well aware of, was one has to have contact with and be involved and interested in their children's lives.  I tried to be that kind of parent.

As for me and religion, I became interested in it because I was curious.  Neither parent told me what to believe.  When I got to college I began a historical study of religions.  I realized at that time there was much to hate.  But the more deeply I studied it I realized that was only partly true.  I grew to realize, as you so well stated, that a person's belief depends upon the when and where of birth, not the rightness of that belief.  I also divide religion into to parts.  The religious, who are simply people trying to get along day-to-day as best they can, are simply people.  All people are the same--they want to have a family, provide for that family, work at what they want to work at, and play at what they want to play at.  That is the same everywhere and everywhen.  The other part of religion is the heinous part.  The hierarchy, the leaders who use scripture to control people, to gather power and maintain it.  They are the popes of the world, the Pat Robertsons, the Joel Osteens, the Billy Grahams, and all other religious leaders of all religions.  They don't follow scriptures, but use them as tools to keep the flock in check.  That's the part I hate.  I hate the hierarchy of all religions.  The vast majority of people in this world are simply good-hearted people trying to make a living.  For the most part, they use the golden rule despite what their religion officially teaches. 

I don't see that you were ever arrogant.  I think maybe, you had a bias about some things because of your upbringing.  Your parents tried to pass on what they thought were good values.  (And I think they were correct), and so you saw the world in a certain way.  You chided that girl who took the picture because she misused something you valued--in your eyes.  You had not experienced the world through her eyes, and so could not know how she viewed that museum.   You fought for your value.  An arrogant person would have left it at that with maybe a curt--'Well you should have known!' , and left it at that.  But you heard the anguish of that person with your heart and reached out to her.  That is not arrogance.   That is a bias being broken, you were willing to listen to another person.  We all go through life with bias'; that helps us make our way without evaluating every single step we take--it's a tool that helps us get through the day faster and easier.  Some allow that bias to turn to prejudice and makes us blind to how the others in our lives feel.  Bias' can be broken easily when on stops and thinks or something happens that kind of slaps us in the face with what we are doing--as when you saw the hurt in the girl you chided.  Prejudice allows one to say something like--'All people of color are mud people and are not really people.'  Arrogance would allow you to keep feeling that way no matter what---for it is your right.  I see you as an emphatic person, not arrogant.  You can also be impatient.  And you don't like ignorance in anybody.  Especially when that ignorance can be dispelled with a little effort on the part of the other. 

If I look down on anybody, it is the hierarchy of each religion--they know what they do.  Something I regard as a bit ironic is that I see people, in their heart of hearts, as being good.  If given a choice of doing somebody harm or somebody good, they will choose good.  (Yes there are some exceptions, but not as many as some what to think)  The irony?  People like Odoital believe people, in their heart of hearts are bad and will chose to sin because they cannot help it. 

I appreciate your viewpoint on this forum, because I like the way you think.  And that you are able to view my country from afar and from a different culture.  In many ways that allows you to see things in quite a different light, and at times, more clearly.  Thanks for sharing about your parents.  They did well--look how you turned out! :)  And something I had to come to terms with with my daughter.  She came from me, but she is her own person.  As a parent I can try to pass along what I value, but at the end of the day, she is her own free agent.  She makes up her own mind.  All I could hope for was to make the ground fertile; she chose what to grow.  She is different than I--and I celebrate that difference.  One of the pieces of literature that I refereed to all the time was a poem by Khalil Gibran, Of Children.  I still read it (and him) all the time.  That is irony, isn't it?--an atheist who loves a Christian poet!  So, you were born of your parents, but at all times, you were a free agent, following your own heart and developing as you chose.  I think you have done a good job so far. :)

:) Thank you.

So you were lucky too! And so is your child. That's a minority in the world. Thanks for sharing yours.

I definitely agree with you on religious leaders and their ilk. I see them as fat leeches, going around and feeding on masses.

No, I don't think it is ironic that you love a Christian poet. Obviously, he is writing on something that calls to you. You don't need to believe in souls and gods to enjoy that.

[the_antithesis]

I'm simply interacting and dialoguing about issues with the intent of giving people something legitimate to think about.

You are a spectacular failure.

[the_antithesis]

I'm a little taken aback by the fact that it only took a couple of days for people to turn on me so quickly,

Go register on a christian forum and say you're an atheist and see what happens.

Most likely, your posts will be censured like you were in the Soviet Union.