Author Topic: "Jewish state"............  (Read 1319 times)

"Jewish state"............
« on: August 10, 2014, 10:10:31 AM »
When I hear Israeli supporters or Israelis use this term it gives me a lip twitch. Are they westernized? Yes. Do they have the good intent of valuing western style government? Again yes.

But I do not buy it one bit when they claim it has nothing to do with religion. It is the same social pecking order denial that you get from Christians in the United States who will call a non Christian equal, but still use the phrase "Christian nation".

Israel has a religious icon on it's flag, it is not a neutral flag, it does not represent the entire population of Israel including Arab and Muslim Israelis anymore than having a cross on the American flag would be neutral.

Most recently Netenyahu said that the "Jewish state" would be based on the Talmud. And again, how would that make anymore sense when Christians in America try to claim that America's laws are ripped out of the bible?

Now of course Israel westernized, and yes far too much of the Middle East is still behind the west in valuing pluralism to the same degree. But no Israel, saying you are not like them because your social pecking order is not fascist, is not equality, it is simply a watered down social pecking order.

The founders of the United States promised to protect freedom of religion, but the glaring lack of the word Christian, and Jesus, and bible, in the Constitution said a lot about what they did not want to be. Theocracy lite is still a theocracy. As soon as you put specific language into law favoring one group over another, you are going to cause divisions.

The only fair thing with government law is to not play favorites and only agree to protect everyone. Israels "Jewish state" claims is problematic for the same reason you have liberal Christians and conservative Christians who view "Christian nation" differently.

America is not a "Christian state", it is nation based on religious freedom, which is why you see "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion or the free exorcise thereof" and in our oath of office "No religious test".

I do not say this to Jews or supporters of Israel to say "you have to leave", but merely as advice knowing how non Christians in America still are viewed, despite our constitution, as guests at best, and or feared as the "other" because of the attitude of "I am more special than you are, and you are equal as long as you accept that".

When you think about how long it took for a Catholic to get elected President, and even longer fore Jews and Muslims to serve in our congress, I am giving you advice as to what really constitutes a secular state. There is no way to view "Jewish state" as not setting up a social pecking order. Equality is not set up that way.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

Offline Solitary

Re: "Jewish state"............
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2014, 11:54:33 AM »
Good post! Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: "Jewish state"............
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2014, 12:20:18 PM »
Back in December Charlie Rose had a middle east expert on who said that Israel has three goals, any two of which invalidate the third:
they want to be 1)a Democratic nation 2)a Jewish state 3)control the entire Israel/Palestine region.
If they control the whole region and want to still be a Jewish state then the large number (perhaps growing to be a majority) of non-Jews must be prohibited from voting so no real Democracy.
If they want to be a Democracy and keep the whole region then the same group of voting non-Jews obviously prevent them from being a Jewish state.
Or they could give up the West Bank and Gaze and be a Democratic and Jewish state within smaller boarders.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Offline stromboli

Re: "Jewish state"............
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2014, 02:51:18 PM »
My attitude about the state of Israel has gone from strong defender to apologist to meh, wtf happens next. Beyond that I can only repond by saying there is a near 100 year history of modern Israel that is very complicated, dating from the Balfour declaration. And despite all the condemnation of Israel and the involvement by the US- (I fixed their airplanes when working at Hill AFB as an aircraft welder) they have reasons for their behavior, however buried in the muck it might be.

Atheists obviously wouldn't have any interest in a Jewish state, and at this point i tend to follow Gawdzilla's idea of just nuking the fucker. I believe tha bible says that is whats going to happen anyway, so whatever.

Re: "Jewish state"............
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2014, 03:09:23 PM »
I am not for scaring the shit out of Israeli Jews merely because I find the idea of basing a state constitution on a holy book a bad idea. I do not see them as Nazis like some paint them out to be. I do however think they don't realize they fall for the same bad logic even our liberal Christians here do when they say "Christian nation".

Jewish Americans who are old enough know that anti Semitism was overwhelming even here. You often hear politicians in both parties say "Judeo Christian" nation. That is actually fairly recent. Most of our history has been solely the idea of "Christian nation" despite "No religious test".

I believe Israeli Jews when they say they want to protect minorities. I simply think no matter how inclusive you claim you want to be the idea of "Jewish state" is still a social pecking order no matter how you slice it. I simply do not think they realize they are making the same mistakes America has in it's own social pecking orders.

There is simply no good way to name drop a group in law language other than "freedom of religion". You name drop in state language, the meaning of equality has no meaning.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37