Author Topic: I Challenge You To a Debate  (Read 45563 times)

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2014, 03:37:59 PM »
Casparov, okay, but you have to understand a self-description is just a starting point of a conversation. It is not the conclusion of one. The definition you provided raises more questions than it provides answers.

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2014, 03:51:47 PM »
I am a Monist Idealist Pantheist if you understand this term you understand my definition of god.

The god i believe in is very similar to the description of "Brahman" described in Hindu traditions, if you understand the concept of Brahman, you understand my definition of god.

I believe god is analogous to the tenth dimension in Rob Bryanton's description of ten dimensions: http://youtu.be/hf2CxZPl7KI If you understand what the tenth dimension is in conjunction with Idealism, you understand my definition of god.

In a single word, I identify as a Panentheist, and in a concise definition, I have provided:

god noun \gäd also gȯd\
   : The supreme or ultimate reality : The ground of all being : Infinite Mind.

I believe there is only one thing that actually exists, and it is God, and we are all parts of it.

This explains a lot, you're confused about the god you believe in so you have refrained from outlining your belief until now. Unfortunately this outline is flawed.

Monist: You believe the universe is made of one form of matter, energy
Idealist: You believe that there is a material and immaterial world (thus contradicting your assertion to being a monist)
Pantheist: God encompasses the entire universe and is everything
Panentheist: "Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe. Unlike pantheism, panentheism maintains the identity and significance of the non-divine in the world."

You have contradicted yourself twice when attempting to outline how you would define god, why would you ever attempt to debate someone about a topic you've clearly put very little thought into. Troll much?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:53:19 PM by Icarus »

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2014, 03:58:39 PM »
I am a Monist Idealist Pantheist if you understand this term you understand my definition of god.

The god i believe in is very similar to the description of "Brahman" described in Hindu traditions, if you understand the concept of Brahman, you understand my definition of god.

I believe god is analogous to the tenth dimension in Rob Bryanton's description of ten dimensions: http://youtu.be/hf2CxZPl7KI If you understand what the tenth dimension is in conjunction with Idealism, you understand my definition of god.

In a single word, I identify as a Panentheist, and in a concise definition, I have provided:

god noun \gäd also gȯd\
   : The supreme or ultimate reality : The ground of all being : Infinite Mind.

I believe there is only one thing that actually exists, and it is God, and we are all parts of it.

If you think that the universe is god, then there's nothing to debate.   Most of us agree that the universe exists.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2014, 04:12:52 PM »
Icarus, Jason78, you gentlemen bring up good points, which further strengthen my already present suspicion that, at this point, the goal of a debate is to strengthen the belief in a god, whatever that may be, for Casparov, rather than being an honest opportunity of sharing of ideas and arguments.
I could be completely wrong but in my experience, more often than not, the desire for a formal debate unmistakably follows after a set of beliefs or a world view was challenged and put under scrutiny.

Offline the_antithesis

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2014, 11:25:29 PM »

I believe there is only one thing that actually exists, and it is God, and we are all parts of it.
Saying god is everything is the same as saying god is nothing.

Offline Casparov

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2014, 11:57:29 PM »
This explains a lot, you're confused about the god you believe in so you have refrained from outlining your belief until now. Unfortunately this outline is flawed.

Monist: You believe the universe is made of one form of matter, energy

No silly. You are very very confused, because you are a Materialist, and you believe that everyone everywhere must also be a materialist, you have concluded that "monism" means that the universe is made of one "form" of matter/energy. You demonstrate how limited your view of the world is.

Monism : Monism is the philosophical view that a variety of existing things can be explained in terms of a single reality or substance. (this has absolutely nothing to do with matter/energy, but only indicates that the fundamental nature of reality is singular rather than dualistic.)

Quote
Idealist: You believe that there is a material and immaterial world (thus contradicting your assertion to being a monist)

No silly. You are entirely ignorant of any view of the world outside of your own limited conception. Therefore you have incorrectly identified the meaning of Idealism in a gross demonstration of your own ignorance and laziness. A simple google search of "Idealism" and "Monism" would have cleared all of this up for you very quickly, but apparently that was too much to ask, so here I am having to do the work for you.

Idealism does not mean "that there is a material and immaterial world" that is called Dualism, which I do not subscribe to obviously, because I have stated that I am a Monist.... I do not believe that there is a material world, only an immaterial world.

Idealism : is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial.

Quote
Pantheist: God encompasses the entire universe and is everything

I do not typically identify as a Pantheist but in conjunction with "Monist Idealist" I (wrongly) thought this would assist you in comprehending what I mean by the word "god". Consciousness as the fundamental singular reality and God encompassing all. But you have demonstrated the amazing ability to turn "Monist Idealist" into "Dualist/Materialist" and so "Pantheism" in conjunction with your definitions has become the same old tired "The Material Universe with the label God slapped onto it" ideology which I do not subscribe to even a tiny bit.

Quote
Panentheist: "Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe. Unlike pantheism, panentheism maintains the identity and significance of the non-divine in the world."

Without the qualifier "Monist Idealist" I refrain from calling myself "Pantheist" because people typically hear that word and think "Material universe as God" which is not an accurate description of my ideology, so when I give a one word description of my beliefs I give the word "Panentheism" to distinguish what I believe from the typical conception of Pantheism.

Panentheism : In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "transcends", "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe.

Quote
You have contradicted yourself twice when attempting to outline how you would define god, why would you ever attempt to debate someone about a topic you've clearly put very little thought into. Troll much?

This post of yours is the perfect example of why I hesitated to provide a description of god in a public thread like this. Now I am forced to make replies like this one, explaining to the lowest common denominator of the forum the simple definitions which anyone can easily look up on their own to clear up the false information you are spreading. You simply made up your own definitions and then said they were incoherent.

Yes, your made up definitions were incoherent. Well done. The actual definitions however, are not. You insinuate that "monism" is not compatible with "Idealism" according to how you have defined them. (maybe because you defined "Monism" as "Materialism" and "Idealism" as "Dualism")

I am astounded by the ignorance of this post, this is exactly what I was trying to avoid having to do....

« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:32:42 AM by Casparov »
“The Fanatical Atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of other spheres.” - Albert Einstein

Offline Casparov

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2014, 12:06:13 AM »
If you think that the universe is god, then there's nothing to debate.   Most of us agree that the universe exists.

Most of you agree that Materialism is true, which is to say that an external Material Universe exists. To call this "god" would be silly, which is the point you are making.

You seem to have ignored the part where I say I am a "Monist Idealist" which means I am not a Materialist, I believe that consciousness is fundamental rather than material objects, therefore I am saying something entirely different than simply "the material universe is god". I am saying that consciousness is fundamental to reality, and I define god is the entire consciousness system as a whole, which we are parts and pieces of.

I am astonished that you read "Monist Idealist Pantheist" and took from it that I was simply saying "the universe is god" I doubt you are an Idealist rather than a Materialist, and so I doubt that you "agree" that what I am talking about is true.

Again, I am forced to defend simple definitions against willing ignorance.
“The Fanatical Atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of other spheres.” - Albert Einstein

Offline Casparov

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2014, 12:26:15 AM »
Icarus, Jason78, you gentlemen bring up good points, which further strengthen my already present suspicion that, at this point, the goal of a debate is to strengthen the belief in a god, whatever that may be, for Casparov, rather than being an honest opportunity of sharing of ideas and arguments.
I could be completely wrong but in my experience, more often than not, the desire for a formal debate unmistakably follows after a set of beliefs or a world view was challenged and put under scrutiny.

I find it more of a concern when people are not willing to debate their ideas. When I find someone who has strong convictions about the nature of reality, so strong that they tell other people that they are wrong, but at the same time refuse to formally debate those ideas, there is something quite disconcerting about that. The unwillingness to put their ideas on the table head to head against competing ideas seems to demonstrate an underlying insecurity.

People afraid to debate their ideas seem to be protecting themselves from the possibility of discovering that they are harboring absurdities and their cherished world view is truly flimsy and weak when exposed from behind the armor of puffed up certainty. One who is not willing to put their world view to the test is afraid to be wrong, and afraid to have their cognitive dissonance laid out for all to see.

Im sure if a fundamentalist Christian walked in here claiming that evolution is wrong and the earth was 6000 years old and demanded a debate, there would be no less that 100 takers competing to be the one who gets to the slaughter the lamb at the alter. Atheist love shooting fish in a barrel, but never want to go deep sea fishing.

If you all are going to refuse to debate me then you should shut down this section of the forum. I'm not going to sit here and beg you to have the balls to have a formal debate. And Im not going to continue to sit here and listen to you come up with lame excuses as to why you aren't going to debate. "The goal of debate is to strengthen the belief in god." ARe you serious??? That's you're excuses??? I am entirely tired of the bullshit. How bout maybe I want to put my world view to the test against a competing world view one-on-one in a formal setting in order to gauge it's strengths and weaknesses? What's my other option? Go to a Creationist forum and debate them? if you think Atheists are opposed to my worldview you should see how fundamentalists christians react to it! But the cognitive dissonance is strikingly similar.... I'm shocked at the garbage I am receiving on this forum in particular though... it is truly remarkable...

I've never seen such intellectual cowardice in my life....
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:36:55 AM by Casparov »
“The Fanatical Atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of other spheres.” - Albert Einstein

Offline Casparov

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2014, 12:28:00 AM »
Casparov, okay, but you have to understand a self-description is just a starting point of a conversation. It is not the conclusion of one. The definition you provided raises more questions than it provides answers.

Of course it is "just a starting point of conversation" hence the debate...  :eyes:
“The Fanatical Atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of other spheres.” - Albert Einstein

Offline Casparov

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2014, 01:16:52 AM »
Saying god is everything is the same as saying god is nothing.

If that were true that would mean that everything is nothing.
“The Fanatical Atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of other spheres.” - Albert Einstein

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2014, 02:17:43 AM »
I am saying something entirely different than simply "the material universe is god". I am saying that consciousness is fundamental to reality, and I define god is the entire consciousness system as a whole, which we are parts and pieces of.

This is actually a lot clearer than your answer to me. Not exactly clear yet but okay.
So you're saying the universe is all a shared dream and that dream is god?

Also please define 'the entire consciousness system as a whole'. This means nothing to me. How does this system work? Please describe the interacting or interdependent components, and also the laws (of nature?) that govern the interaction. Or does gravity have influence on this 'conciousness system as a whole'?

« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 02:36:05 AM by Bibliofagus »
Quote from: \"the_antithesis\"
Faith says, "I believe this and I don\'t care what you say, I cannot possibly be wrong." Faith is an act of pride.

Quote from: \"AllPurposeAtheist\"
The moral high ground was dug up and made into a walmart apparently today.

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Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2014, 02:32:45 AM »
How bout maybe I want to put my world view to the test against a competing world view one-on-one in a formal setting in order to gauge it's strengths and weaknesses?

I'm starting to understand your definition of god, but since you appear  to have tossed al we can know about reality out of the window, I'm very much confused about how you think the universe works (i.e. your worldview). Could you please describe the laws that govern your universe?
Quote from: \"the_antithesis\"
Faith says, "I believe this and I don\'t care what you say, I cannot possibly be wrong." Faith is an act of pride.

Quote from: \"AllPurposeAtheist\"
The moral high ground was dug up and made into a walmart apparently today.

Tornadoes caused: 2, maybe 3.

Offline Mr.Obvious

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Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2014, 02:53:54 AM »
Im sure if a fundamentalist Christian walked in here claiming that evolution is wrong and the earth was 6000 years old and demanded a debate, there would be no less that 100 takers competing to be the one who gets to the slaughter the lamb at the alter. Atheist love shooting fish in a barrel, but never want to go deep sea fishing.

In all fairness, Casparov, I think you should realize most on this forum don't see your claims as a challenge to go deep sea fishing but rather as one for shooting a fish in a barrel. So I don't thing that's  a truthfull analogy. If Walker_Lee, for instance, were to want to debate any of us, I don't think you'd get that kind of response either. Sure, shooting fish in a barrel is fun, but a lot won't want to commit themselves and their time to one rediculous claim when there are so many out there and presented so often even on this bastion of rationality we call Atheïst Forums. Because that's all we see it as; another ridiculous claim.

I know that in your introduction-topic you've stated that you enjoyed that conversation because it made you feel like neo fighting off a horde of agent smiths. (I'm paraphrasing here.) But, whether or not this position is correct for us to have, all we saw was someone dodging the points in posts either on purpose or just because he didn't get them. We see your claims and see there is an equal amount of proof for it as for the 6000 year old argument from a fundamentalist Christian. We didn't see a Neo fighting us off with intelligent reasoning, good arguments and well-thought-out logic. All we saw was someone unwilling to understand what was being said to him and repeating the same unproven statements as if they were dogma in his mind. All we saw was someone who berated people for not living up to a standard of proof his claims could never live up to and who berated positive claims with some evidence as being 'mere assumptions' while making them himself without any kind of evidence.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 03:04:51 AM by Mr.Obvious »
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Offline Casparov

Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2014, 03:03:06 AM »
In all fairness, Casparov, I think you should realize most on this forum don't see your claims as a challenge to go deep sea fishing but rather as one for shooting a fish in a barrel. So I don't thing that's  a truthfull analogy. If Walker_Lee, for instance, were to want to debate any of us, I don't think you'd get that kind of response either.

I know that in your introduction-topic you've stated that you enjoyed that conversation because it made you feel like neo fighting off a horde of agent smiths. (I'm paraphrasing here.) But, whether or not this position is correct for us to have, all we saw was someone dodging the points in posts either on purpose or just because he didn't get them. We see your claims and see there is an equal amount of proof for it as for the 6000 year old argument from a fundamentalist Christian. We didn't see a Neo fighting us off with intelligent reasoning, good arguments and well-thought-out logic. All we saw was someone unwilling to understand what was being said to him and repeating the same unproven statements as if dogma in his mind.

If my arguments are just "shooting fish in a barrel" to you then put your money where your mouth is in and debate me one-on-one.
“The Fanatical Atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of other spheres.” - Albert Einstein

Offline Mr.Obvious

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Re: I Challenge You To a Debate
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2014, 03:17:37 AM »
I don't think I'll be able to show you, probably the only person on this forum who'se not convinced it's shooting fish in a barrel, that it is actually shooting fish in a barrel.

That being said, I don't mind the idea of a one-on-one debate. I'm just a tad confused as to what you hope to accomplish with it. Because regarding your statements I've pretty much said everything I've had to say in your opening topic. And it's clear from that introduction topic that you will sway exactly no-one on this forum. You've also already made your argument to just about everyone on the forum, and nobody here is really impressed. What will repeating that in a one-on-one conversation with me add to that? It'll be like we hit the re-start button.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 09:26:49 AM by Mr.Obvious »
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.