Author Topic: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah  (Read 9672 times)

drunkenshoe

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From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« on: March 12, 2014, 11:40:50 AM »
Noam Chomsky: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah, State Power Ignores Its Massive Harm

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/22390 ... ssive-harm

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    And this is simply everywhere.


Not that I am expecting some healthy response, I just read this.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2014, 12:13:57 PM »
Noam Chomsky is a crank.  

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It happens all the time. So, right now, for example, in Iraq, there is a city, Fallujah, which was attacked by U.S. forces using weapons that no one understands....

Translate this into "...weapons that I, Noam Chomsky don't understand, and I choose to project my ignorance on others."

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...but they leave a high level of radiation.

No, they don't.  He is almost certainly referring to depleted uranium kinetic weapons, and they are not highly radioactive at all.  Depleted Uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium, which is itself not very radioactive.  As is so frequently the case, Chomsky is pulling things out of whole cloth.

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I wouldn't take his word for it.

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Ah, the classic conspiracy theory.

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No, they didn't.  Using Agent Orange as a defoliant was bad enough without making up stories of what they didn't do.

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There are children today being born in Saigon hospitals, deformed children, and horrible deformations.

Of course any birth defect is horrible, but they happen naturally everywhere.  The US Military used Agent Orange in the combat areas, which were nowhere near Saigon.  He's not even choosing the right location to establish a threadbare causal link.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 12:57:43 PM »
Don't be shy Shoe, tell us how you really feel.
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 01:05:58 PM »
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
I am sick of cock sucking morons like you and them vomiting around 'it's a classic conspiracy theory' AFTER every time some atrocity their government committed surfaces. There is always some crank, some conspiracy theory involved. Go fuck yourself.

Here's something to consider.  It's possible for BOTH a) the US government to have committed atrocities and b) cranks to exaggerate the extent of real ones and/or make up ones that never happened.

Did you check on his claims before becoming emotionally invested in them?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 01:39:50 PM »
Atrocities aren't a problem with nations they're a problem of people. Every country commits them. It digs to the core problem with humanity. Doesn't make it o.k. but to vilify the U.S. for something everyone is capable of, and does seems petty.
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 01:41:18 PM »
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
What's the 'normal' amount of atrocities US is allowed to commit minus the cranks, your majesty?

What exactly is the point of this question?  Who is denying that the US as a nation has committed atrocities, and that a single one is unacceptable?  I have gone to great lengths to educate myself and my kids about the atrocities committed by our nation.  

None of that changes the plain and simple fact that most of the claims Noam Chomsky makes in that quote are false.

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You know, we wouldn't want to offend you, by stepping on your birth right to slaughter civilians like animals around the world.

How do you leap from my pointing out that the claims Noam Chomsky is making are false to this ^^^?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 01:48:52 PM »
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
Quote from: "Moriarty"
Atrocities aren't a problem with nations they're a problem of people. Every country commits them. It digs to the core problem with humanity. Doesn't make it o.k. but to vilify the U.S. for something everyone is capable of, and does seems petty.

When US policy spews out any kind of bullshit to jump around the world map to slaughter it is 'defence against a threat', 'intervention for the better', but when it is called for what it is, 'it's petty'. What fucking bullshit. Try something else.

Because atrocities committed in a different country on a false basis are somehow different, or worse than atrocities committed by a nation on its own people. Give me a break and take a different tact yourself. The problem is with humanity, not governments.
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 01:56:11 PM »
P.S. to call Hiroshima and Nagasaki an atrocity is a very debatable issue.

When one considers the amount of American and Japanese lives that would have been lost in an invasion of mainland Japan, along with the amount of land Stalin would have grabbed in an extended war (with his record of purges) a strong statement could be made that it saved millions upon millions of lives.
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 02:05:39 PM »
[youtube:kft5i7om][/youtube:kft5i7om]
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Offline stromboli

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 02:11:59 PM »
I am no fan of Chomsky either, and certainly not a conspiracy theorist. But I was also friends with a Vietnam Vet who was doused by Agent Orange in Vietnam, and subsequently died young from some horrific cancers. To quote:
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Prior to the controversy surrounding Agent Orange, there was already a large body of scientific evidence linking 2,4,5-T to serious negative health effects and ecological damage.[13] But in 1969, it was revealed to the public that the 2,4,5-T was contaminated with a dioxin, 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD), and that the TCDD was causing many of the previously unexplained adverse health effects which were correlated with Agent Orange exposure.[14] TCDD has been described as "perhaps the most toxic molecule ever synthesized by man".[15] Internal memoranda revealed that Monsanto (a major manufacturer of 2,4,5-T) had informed the U.S. government in 1952 that its 2,4,5-T was contaminated.[16] In the manufacture of 2,4,5-T, accidental overheating of the reaction mixture easily causes the product to condense into the toxic self-condensation product TCDD. At the time, precautions were not taken against this unintended side reaction, which caused also the Seveso disaster in Italy in 1976.
And this:
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Agent Orange released during Operation Ranch Hand contained 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD), a dioxin which is linked to increase rates of cancer and birth defects. Dioxin is fat soluble and enters the body through physical contact, inhalation, or ingestion of contaminated food or water. As it is fat soluble, this toxin accumulates in organisms as it moves up the food chain, and carnivores will have higher amounts stored in their bodies than herbivores or plants. When a pregnant mother is exposed to dioxin, the teratogen can enter the embryo via the bloodstream. Dioxin is taken up by the body by attaching to a protein called the aryl hydrocarbon receptor (AhR), a transcription factor. The inactive AhR protein is located in the cytoplasm of most cells, and contains a receptor that is capable of interacting with several kinds of ligands. When dioxin binds to AhR, the protein moves to the nucleus, where it influences gene expression. In normal development gene expression timing and levels are tightly controlled; changing those things can result in birth defects.

OK, I'm quote mining, but there is a point. Chomsky, whether you consider him a flake or not, has raised serious concerns. Ask the Laotians opinions on cluster bombs- they are still digging them up and still suffering from deaths and mutilations from them. The US is by no means free of guilt on war crimes. We have done our share. I'm not going to outright dismiss what he is saying even if I don't agree with him politically or philosophically.

And yes, Vietnam is suffering from abnormal rate of birth defects
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/22/3 ... agent.html
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Believe Chomsky or not, we need to own up to our atrocities and work to solve them.

Online Hydra009

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 02:15:29 PM »
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
Oh hello Hydra. Thank you for joining our 'my country doesn't commit atrocities, even it does it is probably cranked up, everyone make 'mistakes', please don't be emotional about it' line. Oh please. We wouldn't want you to feel bad about it for the 30 seconds you can remember it.
:-?  :rolleyes:   And all this hostility simply from me upvoting someone else.  Wow.  Just wow.

These people are very patiently and cordially disagreeing with you and you lash out at them and dishonestly strawman their arguments.  (Which is exactly why I tend to avoid replying to you)  And on top of that, you apparently even have the temerity to repeatedly ascribe to me positions that I do not actually hold, knowing full well the lie of it, which reflects very poorly on you.  If I were you, I'd apologize to everyone here and try to do better next time.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2014, 02:56:01 PM »
Why shoe? Because people in power commit atrocities? Replacing them would end it? Not a fucking chance, a new group of people would commit atrocities. That is why it is a PEOPLE problem and to think otherwise would make you delusional. It is part of humanity that will likely ALWAYS be there.

I also see you conveniently left out the rest of the argument about the number of American lives that were saved by not having to invade mainland Japan and the quicker end to the war saved a lot of people from Soviet oppression.

You're arguing like a real right wing member now leaving out important parts of an argument. Congratulations.

I'll go further and say that it is a shame the bomb wasn't ready to save lives in Europe before the end of the war.
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 03:18:45 PM »
You misunderstood the use of the word "tact" then. It was not used in reference to emotional status but in terms of a different course or line of argument. Of course I have little doubt you will not admit to it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 03:44:20 PM by Moriarty »
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 03:21:57 PM »
And change in leadership doesn't change the fact that atrocities continue to exist.....under ANY flag..........ever. Hence a people problem. And singling out the U.S. is irresponsible at best.

If you can't understand that then your ignorance is your problem, not mine.

You're just so dead set in your thinking that you can't ever imagine circumstances where war is not only necessary but impossible to avoid and things like the bomb, while hideous, did in fact save more lives than it took.
<Insert witty remark>

"Say what you will about George W. Bush, but he wouldn\'t have stood for Russian aggression in the Ukraine. He\'d have invaded New Zealand by now."--Donald O\'Keeffe.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 03:22:53 PM »
This thread suffers from a distinct lack of supportive evidence and data. If there is in fact "studies by Iraqi and American doctors showing a very high level of cancer among children, far higher than before, in the whole neighborhood of Fallujah", I would like to see those studies and it is something that should be trivial to present.

I am interested in objective data obtained from first-hand reporting parties so that I can form a personal opinion in objective fact, not policial observations done by third party individuals, and attempts to support political opinion by relying on past actions.

Where is the data?