Author Topic: Is the bible and jesus really true?  (Read 259 times)

Offline aitm

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2021, 04:16:18 PM »

Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
then he has a problem. Matthew 5:12 or 17...can't remember, jesus claims the old laws and prophets ( meaning the Torah=OT) are true.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline SGOS

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2021, 05:04:58 PM »
I wonder why it really matters if Jesus existed or not; it is his actions that should be examined, not if he did or didn't exist.
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not.  His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously.  If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant.  If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant.  I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind.  We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2021, 05:49:51 PM »

Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
Your 'friend' destroys his own argument.  Moses is  fictional and the OT is also fictional.  When Paul quotes or uses 'scripture' what do you think he is referring to?  The OT.  So, Paul's writings, which are the first of the NT, are based on the OT which your 'friend' indicates is false.  Instead of coming here and asking us to do all the work for you, why not research a little on the net?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2021, 01:00:46 PM »
If the Old Testament--and particularly Genesis--is false, then the New Testament is irrelevant.  Without Genesis there is no "original sin" that the biblical god had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to make a loophole in his own rules.
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online trdsf

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2021, 08:09:47 PM »
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
Five stars, would sin again.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Online trdsf

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2021, 08:12:15 PM »
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not.  His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously.  If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant.  If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant.  I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind.  We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist.  They're all about what Paul decide Jesus meant to say, than what he allegedly actually did say.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2021, 09:03:31 PM »
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist.  They're all about what Paul decide Jesus meant to say, than what he allegedly actually did say.
If I remember correctly, Paul never quotes Jesus in any of his arguments.  He does not really talk about him as though he was an actual person who was alive and walking the Earth.  He refers to him as being in heaven.  Jesus seems to be an ethereal entity and not a corporal
one.  Richard Carrier does an excellent job of breaking down what in the OT Paul used to create his view of what Jesus was.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2021, 10:08:51 PM »
It was very common for many cultures in early biblical times to teach very simply through 'mythical allegory'. Look at the ancient Greek myths, for example. It was never meant to be historical. As time marched on...the myths and stories were still useful and compelling to those who wanted a new direction. They have more power if people begin believing the stories are actually true.