Author Topic: Is the bible and jesus really true?  (Read 708 times)

Offline aitm

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2021, 04:16:18 PM »

Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
then he has a problem. Matthew 5:12 or 17...can't remember, jesus claims the old laws and prophets ( meaning the Torah=OT) are true.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline SGOS

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2021, 05:04:58 PM »
I wonder why it really matters if Jesus existed or not; it is his actions that should be examined, not if he did or didn't exist.
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not.  His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously.  If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant.  If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant.  I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind.  We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2021, 05:49:51 PM »

Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
Your 'friend' destroys his own argument.  Moses is  fictional and the OT is also fictional.  When Paul quotes or uses 'scripture' what do you think he is referring to?  The OT.  So, Paul's writings, which are the first of the NT, are based on the OT which your 'friend' indicates is false.  Instead of coming here and asking us to do all the work for you, why not research a little on the net?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2021, 01:00:46 PM »
If the Old Testament--and particularly Genesis--is false, then the New Testament is irrelevant.  Without Genesis there is no "original sin" that the biblical god had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to make a loophole in his own rules.
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline trdsf

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2021, 08:09:47 PM »
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
Five stars, would sin again.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline trdsf

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2021, 08:12:15 PM »
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not.  His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously.  If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant.  If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant.  I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind.  We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist.  They're all about what Paul decide Jesus meant to say, than what he allegedly actually did say.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2021, 09:03:31 PM »
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist.  They're all about what Paul decide Jesus meant to say, than what he allegedly actually did say.
If I remember correctly, Paul never quotes Jesus in any of his arguments.  He does not really talk about him as though he was an actual person who was alive and walking the Earth.  He refers to him as being in heaven.  Jesus seems to be an ethereal entity and not a corporal
one.  Richard Carrier does an excellent job of breaking down what in the OT Paul used to create his view of what Jesus was.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2021, 10:08:51 PM »
It was very common for many cultures in early biblical times to teach very simply through 'mythical allegory'. Look at the ancient Greek myths, for example. It was never meant to be historical. As time marched on...the myths and stories were still useful and compelling to those who wanted a new direction. They have more power if people begin believing the stories are actually true.

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2021, 11:27:08 AM »
Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.

So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?

Well then, if what your friend argues is valid and sound then he answered your question - his presumption that "the bible and jesus are true" is invalid.

On another point, your friend is using the "hey look over there" fallacy.

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2021, 09:50:35 PM »
Here is a simple experiment. Read the first chapter of Genesis. Now, don’t just read it..LISTEN to it. Most people read it quickly because it is kind of a mumbo jumbo. But what it says...and really says, is the Heavens are the earth and the “firmament” immediately around the earth. Outside of that is water....everywhere. The stars, sun, moon are all within this “firmament”. In other words, the heavens stops at the blue we see above our earth, then it is water. Because how else could water fall from the sky if it wasn’t water.
Later this is reinforced when the babble suggests that a third of the stars fell to the earth...how is that possible?Because the stars are just little twinkly things that a good archer and a strong bow could probably hit. Why else does the babble says the sky can be rolled up like a scroll? How else could a flying dragon gather a third of the stars and fling them to earth?

God says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
But there is lots more whack a doo, if you actually read the babble. Where else can you find such nonsense?
Only in the bat shit crazy world of the babble.
I always wondered if God didn’t create the sun until the fourth day, how was he measuring days before that? And where was the light coming from?

Offline SGOS

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2021, 07:59:01 AM »
It was very common for many cultures in early biblical times to teach very simply through 'mythical allegory'. Look at the ancient Greek myths, for example. It was never meant to be historical.
I always assumed the Greeks believed in their Gods.  There would be skeptics of course.  But I have no knowledge to support my assumption.  On the other hand, who is to say the writers of the Bible actually believed what they were writing?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 08:00:39 AM by SGOS »

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2021, 09:13:45 AM »
I always assumed the Greeks believed in their Gods.  There would be skeptics of course.  But I have no knowledge to support my assumption.  On the other hand, who is to say the writers of the Bible actually believed what they were writing?
I think the writers of all of the material that is in the bible(s) of the world were believed by the original writers.  But the genius of the bible is the work the propagandists/editors put into the selection and organization of the material they used.  Those editors probably did not care if the material was 'true' or not; their true goal was to create material that furthered their agenda.  I don't think belief mattered.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2021, 09:58:23 AM »
I always assumed the Greeks believed in their Gods.  There would be skeptics of course.  But I have no knowledge to support my assumption.  On the other hand, who is to say the writers of the Bible actually believed what they were writing?
I think the Greeks believed in their gods about the same way we believe in superheroes.

Offline aitm

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2021, 08:03:31 PM »
I think the Greeks believed in their gods about the same way we believe in superheroes.
It does seem rather obvious to the outsider that every culture had their own gods. Early American Indians also had a flood story, I believe it was called the reed and the turtle, very similar to other flood stories as quite simply floods are far more common world wide than any other calamity.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2021, 09:16:07 PM »
It does seem rather obvious to the outsider that every culture had their own gods. Early American Indians also had a flood story, I believe it was called the reed and the turtle, very similar to other flood stories as quite simply floods are far more common world wide than any other calamity.
I would also guess the storytellers knew they were telling stories, much as a parent does for a child. Somewhere along the line Christians (among others) forgot the symbolism and started taking these things literally.