Author Topic: The growing DNC civil war  (Read 935 times)

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2021, 05:45:51 PM »
We do got lots of dumb-ass bible misquoting rednecks. Oh yeah, they are all packing pistols and plus an AR somewhere in that truck too. Jesus Saves, goddammit ! I doubt I'll ever see any Antifa back in this swamp, LOL. They don't have 4x4s.

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2021, 11:21:35 AM »
Nice leaked audio of a shouting match between Biden and left-wing activists.




Offline Shiranu

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2021, 03:23:44 PM »
Still doesn't know what a left-winger is...

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2021, 03:56:17 PM »
Nice leaked audio of a shouting match between Biden and left-wing activists.



Krystal and Saagar are both pundits for populism, clearly articulated in their book The Populist's Guide to 2020. It's unsurprising that a populist progressive like Krystal is going to be unhappy with a non-progressive president who is calling for Democrats and Republicans to work together. Personally, I support Biden's commitment to not contribute to the abuse of executive action. Of course, progressives are going to say there is "extreme danger" in something like not eliminating all student debt by executive action, something that a president can't do under the constitution. The ends of the political spectrum hate the middle and scream moderates are not doing enough (and, yes, yes... I understand the argument that Biden's not a moderate because "moderate" in America is right-wing everywhere else). I don't call a $2 trillion infrastructure plan, the $1.9 trillion COVID-19 stimulus package, a new target of reducing emissions by 50 percent to 52 percent from 2005 levels by 2030, and plan to significantly increase corporate taxes as "inaction." Will Krystal's prediction come to pass that if Biden doesn't give progressives what they want the Democrats will tank in 2022? I have no idea.
"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline SGOS

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2021, 08:35:54 PM »
Will Krystal's prediction come to pass that if Biden doesn't give progressives what they want the Democrats will tank in 2022? I have no idea.
I don't either, but I consider it in the realm of possibility.  The extremes have this weakening effect on both parties.  Republicans not as much.  They tend to stick together more.  But Democrats are all over the map, one of the disadvantages of relying on a more diverse crowd for support.

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2021, 11:39:55 PM »
This from 2019 but according to FiveThirtyEight, there are six wings of the Democratic party:

The Super Progressives
Very liberal on economic and identity/cultural issues, anti-establishment. (Anti-establishment is a very fuzzy term, but in this piece, what I’m referring to is people who see part of their role as not just attacking Republicans, but also highlighting what they see as shortcomings of the Democratic Party itself.)
Prominent examples: Ocasio-Cortez , Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Rep. Mark Pocan of Wisconsin, Rep. Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan.

The Very Progressives
Very liberal on economic issues, fairly liberal on identity issues, skeptical of the Democratic establishment.
Prominent examples: Bill de Blasio, Sen. Jeff Merkley of Oregon, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren.

The Progressive New Guard
Liberal on both economic and identity issues but also somewhat concerned about the “electability” of candidates and the appeal of ideas to the political center; generally rose to prominence after Barack Obama was elected president.
Prominent examples: Stacey Abrams, Cory Booker, Pete Buttigieg, Julian Castro, Kamala Harris, Jay Inslee, Beto O’Rourke.

The Progressive Old Guard
Solidly center-left on both economic and identity issues, but very concerned about the “electability” of candidates and the appeal of ideas to the political center; generally rose to prominence before Obama was elected president.
Prominent examples: Joe Biden, Cuomo, Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer.

The Moderates
More conservative and business-friendly than other Democrats on economic policies; somewhat liberal on cultural issues; anti-establishment.
Prominent examples: Rep. Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey, Rep. Conor Lamb of Pennsylvania, Rep. Abigail Spanberger of Virginia.

Conservative Democrats
Skeptical of liberal views on both economic and cultural issues; often supportive of abortion limits; generally from conservative-leaning areas.
Prominent examples: Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards, West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin.
"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline Shiranu

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2021, 12:03:02 AM »
Overall I agree with those definitions, though I would probably move Pelosi, possibly Schumer and Feinstein to the Moderate category (and for Feinstein, probably closer to the Conservative in some regards).

Offline SGOS

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2021, 07:36:13 AM »
I don't fit well in any of those categories.  Someone would have to scrunch me into one of them they thought was closest.  I do not consider myself liberal on economic issues, except that big spending is necessary to end recessions.  So I don't fit well at that extreme.  The other end is a horrible fit.  And in the middle looks politically correct but pragmatically wishy washy.  But "liberal on economic issues" is loaded with meanings and contexts.  To a Republican, big spending is always good if its motive is to create tax breaks.  Democrats are known for big spending, but that's not fair.  They just spend a lot of the money differently.  I'm financially cautious by nature.  It's the way I run my own life.  How that method applies to government, I'm not sure.  So that particular issue prevents my access to the liberal end. 

Never-the-less, those "which group do you belong in" puzzles are fun.  This is where we could use Baruch's help.  He's life's work is classifying others, and he could settle it all right now. But we would have to add Fascist Commie Pinko to the categories, or he wouldn't know where to put anyone. 

Offline Shiranu

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2021, 12:27:23 PM »
I don't fit well in any of those categories.  Someone would have to scrunch me into one of them they thought was closest.  I do not consider myself liberal on economic issues, except that big spending is necessary to end recessions.  So I don't fit well at that extreme.  The other end is a horrible fit.  And in the middle looks politically correct but pragmatically wishy washy.  But "liberal on economic issues" is loaded with meanings and contexts.  To a Republican, big spending is always good if its motive is to create tax breaks.  Democrats are known for big spending, but that's not fair.  They just spend a lot of the money differently.  I'm financially cautious by nature.  It's the way I run my own life.  How that method applies to government, I'm not sure.  So that particular issue prevents my access to the liberal end. 

Never-the-less, those "which group do you belong in" puzzles are fun.  This is where we could use Baruch's help.  He's life's work is classifying others, and he could settle it all right now. But we would have to add Fascist Commie Pinko to the categories, or he wouldn't know where to put anyone. 

I think it's more for elected officials than voters; I certainly don't fall under any of those categories, and the last year or so has really pushed my ideology firmly into "Marxist, but willing to compromise with Moderates on most issues" camp.

Which is also why I am far more annoyed nowadays when people call liberals "leftists", because if liberals are "radically left" then we are actually fucked.

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2021, 02:38:27 PM »
I think it's more for elected officials than voters; I certainly don't fall under any of those categories, and the last year or so has really pushed my ideology firmly into "Marxist, but willing to compromise with Moderates on most issues" camp.

Which is also why I am far more annoyed nowadays when people call liberals "leftists", because if liberals are "radically left" then we are actually fucked.
I don't think most people know what liberal, socialism, communism, nazi, conservative or patriot actually mean.  It takes too much effort to figure out what they mean.  And so, the stupid rule this country--and yes, we are actually fucked.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2021, 10:29:46 AM »
Here is another example for Krystal Ball on why I don't believe her statement, "Biden (is) throwing up his hands and setting expectations at the ground on what he can do."

White House proposes $1.8 trillion package that would dramatically expand education, safety net programs - Universal preschool and free community college are among a plethora of initiatives that would be paid for by tax increases and IRS changes.

The White House on Wednesday unveiled a $1.8 trillion spending and tax plan aimed at dramatically expanding access to education and safety-net programs for families, the latest effort by President Biden to try to turn some of his campaign promises into new policy. ...

The White House says its proposal would provide every American with two years of tuition-free community college; prekindergarten for all 3- and 4-year-olds; and paid family and medical leave for American workers. Among its sweeping agenda items, the plan also calls for devoting hundreds of billions of dollars to fighting child poverty and ensuring affordable child care nationwide. ...

To pay for these initiatives, White House officials are also proposing $1.5 trillion in tax hikes aimed primarily at increasing the amount paid by wealthy Americans and investors. The White House aims to raise money through a sizable increase in enforcement by the Internal Revenue Service, as well as approximately doubling the capital gains tax rate for those earning more than $1 million per year — a measure that would apply to a small fraction of Americans but is likely to face resistance on Capitol Hill. ...
"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline SGOS

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2021, 11:13:00 AM »
I think for a lot of harsh critics, they feel a need to come down hard, sometimes even intentionally unfairly.  They may also feel a need to posture.  Their agenda may be hidden or open.  They may be trying to knock the moderate leaders out of their comfortable niche, or they simply want their voice to be heard, as opposed to being ignored.  Especially so with the liberals who the party assumes are secretly devoted to, well, the party.  There are a lot of worthwhile agendas out there that need a voice, and if they don't speak up, they will never ever be recognized, not in a million years.  Maybe they realize that they will be ignored.

I don't think its as much being critical of the president as it is about just wanting to be heard.  Are their needs unjustified?  I don't know.  Some of their needs don't match mine at all, but I recognize that there are more issues out there than just getting behind the leader.  At least they are not storming the capital in paramilitary gear.  Where we draw the line at what is reasonable is not universally agreed on.

I know this is a problem for a lot of Democrats.  They want and need the unity and devotion that the Republicans get, but they are representing a herd of cats, not bobble heads.

But about Biden.  I'm growing to like him, but this is always tentative.  He is pointing more or less in some right directions, and he's being bold too. Bold may be a good thing.  I'm not sure.  Trump was also bold, so "bold" is not the end all be all of a good presidency.  I'll know better in two years how I feel about Biden.  At this point, I would say my strongest reaction to him is "surprise," a good surprise.

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2021, 11:56:49 AM »
So far, Biden is doing a better job than I anticipated. With such hyperpartisan politics and dealing with a pandemic, I would give any president some leeway. As Trump learned, presidents are not kings and, as we learned from Trump, we don't want them to be. Ideally Congress should be making laws and the executive branch enforcing them but it doesn't work that way. Many Americans find it easier to blame the president rather than their congressional representatives, especially since many Americans can't name their representatives!
"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline SGOS

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2021, 05:17:52 PM »
My neighbor informs me that the reason gas prices are so high is because Biden is driving up the price.

This is how I know the New York Times is a left wing rag.  Because they never reported it.

Online Hydra009

Re: The growing DNC civil war
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2021, 06:09:09 PM »
This from 2019 but according to FiveThirtyEight, there are six wings of the Democratic party:

The Super Progressives
Very liberal on economic and identity/cultural issues, anti-establishment. (Anti-establishment is a very fuzzy term, but in this piece, what I’m referring to is people who see part of their role as not just attacking Republicans, but also highlighting what they see as shortcomings of the Democratic Party itself.)
Prominent examples: Ocasio-Cortez , Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Rep. Mark Pocan of Wisconsin, Rep. Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan.

The Very Progressives
Very liberal on economic issues, fairly liberal on identity issues, skeptical of the Democratic establishment.
Prominent examples: Bill de Blasio, Sen. Jeff Merkley of Oregon, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren.

The Progressive New Guard
Liberal on both economic and identity issues but also somewhat concerned about the “electability” of candidates and the appeal of ideas to the political center; generally rose to prominence after Barack Obama was elected president.
Prominent examples: Stacey Abrams, Cory Booker, Pete Buttigieg, Julian Castro, Kamala Harris, Jay Inslee, Beto O’Rourke.

The Progressive Old Guard
Solidly center-left on both economic and identity issues, but very concerned about the “electability” of candidates and the appeal of ideas to the political center; generally rose to prominence before Obama was elected president.
Prominent examples: Joe Biden, Cuomo, Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer.

The Moderates
More conservative and business-friendly than other Democrats on economic policies; somewhat liberal on cultural issues; anti-establishment.
Prominent examples: Rep. Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey, Rep. Conor Lamb of Pennsylvania, Rep. Abigail Spanberger of Virginia.

Conservative Democrats
Skeptical of liberal views on both economic and cultural issues; often supportive of abortion limits; generally from conservative-leaning areas.
Prominent examples: Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards, West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin.
Huh.  I'm suddenly far more to the left than I actually consider myself since I very much straddle those first two boxes.

I note that "electability" is a big thing with the two semi-liberal groups who coincidentally have a vested interest in portraying their primary opponents as "too radical" (a claim mirrored by Trump and other far-right candidates) and therefore present themselves as the only remaining "reasonable" option.