Author Topic: Student loan forgiveness  (Read 736 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2021, 04:17:12 AM »
That Jr. College now has it's own campus with several buildings, but when it was in the high school building, some clever students dug up about two square feet of someones lawn and placed it in the middle of the hallway of the college part of the building, and stuck a sign in it reading, "Please Don't Step on the Campus Grass."

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2021, 08:53:22 AM »
That Jr. College now has it's own campus with several buildings, but when it was in the high school building, some clever students dug up about two square feet of someones lawn and placed it in the middle of the hallway of the college part of the building, and stuck a sign in it reading, "Please Don't Step on the Campus Grass."
LOL. I recall having 15 kids in my Jr college calculus class. It was truly a Socratic situation. When I transferred to state university, the class sizes were a lot larger and less personal. I graduated debt free. I can't even imagine starting out a career with huge debt. Greedy short term thinking fucks.

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2021, 11:12:43 AM »
I've been reading articles on why college is so expensive and these seem to be the major reasons:

1) Since 1985 the demand for higher education has risen dramatically and increased demand raises prices. The more students who want to attend college, the more the cost of college increases, and the more students borrow money. As the expense of college increases and more people obtain degrees, the advantage of a college degree actually decreases.

2) State funding can't keep up with enrollment. Many state governments have cut operating support for higher education. States and local communities are spending less per student and therefore costs are passed on to students, who take out more loans.

3) More financial aid programs cause colleges to increase tuition. Knowing that students will get this financial-aid, colleges raise fees to capture that money.

4) Colleges have to pay university professors. Acquiring and recruiting highly educated faculty and staff costs money, especially in fields with significant demand outside academia. Things that could lower these costs — such as larger classes, more adjunct faculty, and fewer full-time professors, and shorter hours — are immensely unpopular with students, parents, and the public.

5) Colleges try to attract students with expensive amenities and support services. There has been an explosion in the number of non-teaching personnel on campus, with several administrators at top universities making six-figure salaries with fringe benefits and secretarial support. An estimated two-thirds of university budgets have nothing to do with teaching but instead go toward things like advocates, dormitories, and facilities.
"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Online aitm

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2021, 08:37:51 PM »
The largest IMO...is the simple idea that in order for colleges to maintain the “lower/little” return degrees is to force other students to take classes that offer very little to the objective. Electives are the scourge but I realize they seem necessary to maintain the philosophy and English classes that really offer minuscule benefit to the engineering and physics classes. Come up with a better system.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline SGOS

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2021, 02:51:34 AM »
The largest IMO...is the simple idea that in order for colleges to maintain the “lower/little” return degrees is to force other students to take classes that offer very little to the objective. Electives are the scourge but I realize they seem necessary to maintain the philosophy and English classes that really offer minuscule benefit to the engineering and physics classes. Come up with a better system.
Yes and no.  I firmly believe exposure to all the disciplines is necessary, but on the other hand, the amount of exposure to my area of interest did not go deep enough, even at the upper class-man level, and much of what I got there was of no more use to me than what I got in electives.  The fact is some electives are crap and some are enlightening, just as core subjects can be.

Would you say that students of the seminary are forced to take too many subjects outside their area of specialty?  Wouldn't you encourage them to take more classes that stress critical thinking and logic?  We have seen in this forum how uniformed some of those seminary students can be.  We've seen their tunnel vision and rigidity.  We've seen how little they actually understand about atheism.  And I think that is one area they should understand with exceptional clarity, but they fail miserably.

The last two years of college, I spent at what was basically a teacher's college that conferred on all graduates a Bachelor of Science degree only.  They taught science classes for sure, but none were on par with what I had taken as an undergrad at the university.  But at this Bachelor of Science college they had just initiated a new Bachelor of Arts degree, and my graduating class graduated their first and only Bachelor of Arts student at that time.  He was also class valedictorian, and I suspect they made him valedictorian just to promote their new Arts degree, which the University President saw as a milestone in quality education and bla, bla, bla.  My impression at the time was La-Dee-Fuckin'-Dah; A man for all seasons!

But in looking back now, I am grateful for many of those electives in English, Speech, Philosophy, economics, etc.  For all it's faults, I came out of college with a wider perspective on life, and I have often thought about that as an unexpected good fortune.  This is not to say that all of my classwork was a wonderful experience.  Some of it was a total waste of time and money, but that applied to my areas of specialty as well as electives.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 03:45:30 AM by SGOS »

Offline SGOS

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2021, 03:21:05 AM »
Continued from above:

On the other side of the coin, I had an opportunity to tour a community college in Seattle with my superintendent and another counselor from our high school in Montana, and it was the most fascinating and focused educational facility I had ever seen.  It was a model for what you get when Corporate America takes over and funds education for it's own purposes.  I could see the good in that, as well as the bad.  It was funded with no expense spared by West Coast industry.  Boeing was there, along with Kenworth Logging Trucks, Major Hotels, Restaurants, Machine Industries, General Motors, Hair salons, communications industries, and I can't remember them all.

You want graduates that can assemble a logging truck from parts?  Kenworth gave them the parts of an entire logging truck, and taught them how to assemble it, with a job waiting for them upon graduation.  You want to be an aeronautical engineer?  Boeing supplied the college with a hanger full of planes including a fighter jet, a 747 engine that took up so much space they stored it on it's "tail" vertically, like a rocket, and an array of other planes and the electronics that come with them.  Interested in Hotel and restaurant management?  They had an on campus section that included a Hotel, MacDonald's, and a first class restaurant where we had lunch prepared by supervised students and were greeted by a student hostess in a formal dress that treated us like royalty.  The same can be said for all the curricular offerings available there.  The administrator that guided us around seemed to favor their machine shop the most.  He referred to those students as the "creme-de-la-creme."

I asked if they also taught courses in math and English, and our guide seemed a little defensive, answering, "Yes, of course," but I got the impression that he thought I was missing the point of it all.  Believe me.  I saw the point.  You want skilled personnel?  This is the place you would go to find your dream staff.  Were the students well rounded?  I don't know, but they came out skilled.

Offline SGOS

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2021, 03:44:07 AM »
On the other hand, I wonder where the guys that designed that new Boeing 737 that keeps crashing all the time came from?

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2021, 07:22:34 AM »
On the other hand, I wonder where the guys that designed that new Boeing 737 that keeps crashing all the time came from?
The engineers knew the problems presented by the bigger engines on the 737 max. Boeing management wanted to save money by certifying the plane as an upgrade rather than as a new aircraft type. They downplayed the changes, including pilot training on the new automatic attitude control (MCAS) and the FAA fell for it. Internal memos revealed a toxic culture of engineers caving in to management, much pressure to meet the schedule, and the FAA over-relying on Boeing. It wasn't a really technical 'miss' as much as a corporate greed culture that had seeped in.

Offline SGOS

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2021, 07:31:05 AM »

It wasn't a really technical 'miss' as much as a corporate greed culture that had seeped in.

Yeah, I actually knew that, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to make a joke out of it.

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2021, 08:39:20 AM »
But in looking back now, I am grateful for many of those electives in English, Speech, Philosophy, economics, etc.  For all it's faults, I came out of college with a wider perspective on life, and I have often thought about that as an unexpected good fortune.  This is not to say that all of my classwork was a wonderful experience.  Some of it was a total waste of time and money, but that applied to my areas of specialty as well as electives.

NC State school of engineering felt like a big technical school and many engineering students hated taking classes that were not directly related to their field. I transferred to UNC-Asheville, which was a liberal arts university, and the emphasis was on humanities and teaching students how to think, job preparation was secondary. Every student at UNC-Asheville is required to take a sequential humanities track each year:

UNC Asheville's Humanities Program explores what it means to be human. We examine the human experience by looking at what we’ve achieved in our several thousand years of recorded history, including our diverse values and beliefs, and how these concerns and passions influence our time. Humanities courses aren’t just about history; they draw together faculty and subject matter across subjects including history, literature, philosophy, religion, natural science, social science and fine arts. Humanities helps us make educated and ethical decisions as we strive to solve problems and make progress as a civilization.

I watched this video which included an explanation of how higher education works in Australia. Their Higher Education Contribution Scheme allows students to attend university at no up-front expense. Students don't pay for their education until they graduate and are employed at least $52K a year. At that point, they pay a significantly higher tax rate until their educational expenses are paid off. This allows the government to control price levels. Because almost no one pays out of pocket for their education, universities have to follow the government's pricing guidelines.

"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline Mermaid

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2021, 03:36:55 PM »
My undergrad in the mid-80s was a little north of $800 per semester.
My most recent grad (2020) was $25,000 a semester. The caveat is that undergrad was a state school and recent grad was an Ivy, but still.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2021, 04:47:20 PM »
The JC I went to was almost free.  The fees were so little I could pay for them by one season of working in the garlic fields.  My 4 yr college, counting room and board, was cheap enough that I could attend with the help of a loan of less than 2 grand total.  After getting out of the Army, the GI bill paid for the last year of my teaching credential fees.  Then when I got my first teaching job (for the huge pay of $6600 a year), the rest of my college loans were forgiven.  But that was over 50 yrs ago.  Like all else of this society, the infrastructure is only just hanging on.  Like the bridges of this country, our infrastructure is very close to collapse.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2021, 12:29:25 PM »
Since it's the governments doing, that college costs so much, it's right that they undo the bullshit with loan forgiveness.

Anyone who does more than 2 seconds of thinking understands that the reason there is no draft and will not be a draft, is because they cause college to be so expensive. It funnels people in to the military for the reason that Gawdzilla said: it forgives your college expenses, if you serve.

Why draft people, when you can make them think it was their choice? (Even if it was a lack of choice, from not being from a family of high wealth)

In the words of SOAD "why do they always send the poor"

But yes, they do need to make college less expensive. It is overly expensive right now. The loan forgiveness is a bandaid to something that can be fixed by the government mandating a cap on tuition costs. A low cap. At least for community college.

Oh wow I've just remembered ...apart from your comment which I completely agree by the way...The reason that of our 3 beloved old regulars leaving this forum was me beating on this very issue. Particularly with TomFlooery...But Sabrina and what was his name...our ex mormon, veteran member?  I can't probably remember his name because I actually feel guilty about it somehow... yeah yeah I am not the most subtle one...doesn't change the facts. (Not that facts, Paolo.) Oh wow...whistle

Everything's changed. And considering that is too nothing and too fast, probably nothing has actually changed. Hope they're safe anyway. aaarrag...ooof.

"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2021, 09:38:33 PM »
I already paid back my student loans.  How can I benefit from this...
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.

No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

Re: Student loan forgiveness
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2021, 09:53:04 PM »
I already paid back my student loans.  How can I benefit from this...

1) Create a fake online university.

2) Get friends to take out tens of thousands of dollars in student loans paid to your university.

3) Wait for the student loan forgiveness.

4) Split the profit with your friends.

"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer