Author Topic: Christian Nationalism  (Read 372 times)

Christian Nationalism
« on: February 03, 2021, 11:07:12 AM »
Christian nationalism is a threat, and not just from Capitol attackers invoking Jesus:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/01/31/christian-nationalism-josh-hawley-ted-cruz-capitol-attack-column/4292193001/

In the long (or medium) run, this is more of a problem than white nationalism.  The ends justifies the means is their motto. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2021, 11:22:01 AM »
Christian nationalism is a threat, and not just from Capitol attackers invoking Jesus:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/01/31/christian-nationalism-josh-hawley-ted-cruz-capitol-attack-column/4292193001/

In the long (or medium) run, this is more of a problem than white nationalism.  The ends justifies the means is their motto. 

Christian nationalism is something I have been concerned about for some time. It's a direct attack on secularism. These people are not stupid either, they are playing the long game. I think I've recommended this book here before but The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American by Andrew L Seidel is a detailed exploration of this topic.
"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline aitm

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2021, 02:18:40 PM »
"The Handmaides Tale" is a closer reality than a comfortably uncomfortable book.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2021, 04:17:29 PM »
I assume most people here are familiar with PragerU and their online campaign to promote an America governed by Biblical values. They have 2.86 million followers and make videos that appear reasonable and convincing to average people who don't know the other side of the argument.

"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2021, 04:41:29 PM »
I assume most people here are familiar with PragerU and their online campaign to promote an America governed by Biblical values. They have 2.86 million followers and make videos that appear reasonable and convincing to average people who don't know the other side of the argument.
Because theocracies are such happy places.

Online Hydra009

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2021, 06:58:27 PM »
Christian nationalism is something I have been concerned about for some time. It's a direct attack on secularism.
And not just that.  Secularism is foundational for a modern, heterogeneous state, lest it be riven by sectarian disputes.

Attacking secularism is the first volley in transforming a modern heterogeneous state into a state where one people/culture dominate all others and modern norms no longer exist.  A significant social regression instituted by people both afraid of change and hungry for power.

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2021, 10:17:12 PM »
I don't normally watch live television but today I was at the gym and saw this ad for Alliance Defending Freedom. Unfortunately, Trump has stacked the courts with conservative judges, so they have made a great deal of progress. The plan is to oppose all LGBTQ rights, specifically marriage and adoption, ban abortion, put prayer in schools, and make the US legally and culturally controlled by Christians. When they advocate "freedom" and "liberty" they are only referring to that of Christians, e.g. not freedom for women to control their bodies.



"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2021, 07:12:54 AM »
Then the problem is, why does a couple of hundred years old text still treated as meaningful source with these concepts beyond any historical value. Because there is basically nothing defined and written down. Well, yeah...you don't get the tell people that secularism requires a godless state at that century, you modify whatever is available. And if that's not defined later, updated regularly, it becomes this political toy while this has nothing to do with real politics.

Linguistics seems to be very important in this subject. Secularism is not the seperation of religion and state, and civic affairs. Secularism is the transformation of a given culture and human affairs into a 'worldly' existence. I keep looking but can't find the word for that specific 'wordly' concept in English. The result gives the term 'profanation' which has a derog, negative meaning. That's a red flag to begin with. It's all loaded in one word and as it is a huge concept related to many variables, it becomes vague and that of course made it very easy for politicians to play with. The word I'm looking for means something like 'make the people, the culture...of this world'.Yeah you bet they hate it. There must be a word in English.

Institutions cannot be secular. States and governments cannot be secular. Law cannot be secular; the modern law is law but nothing else; it is above everything. The concept of religious law has already been abolished long time ago. They can only be laicist. People; culture and human affairs can be secular as a result of a laicist constitution/law. There is a reason why the French system produced these two concepts which are inseperable from each other. You can't jump to the effect without the cause.

Related to this, something else is happening with these concepts I think. According to my observation, most people and sources in American culture also in others -even the secular ones- seem to perceive/treat the state and the religion as two different sides of one coin belonging to one category. So it creates this misundestanding which is wide open to manipulation that they are interchangable and that's the main conflict. They are not.

The State and the religion don't have any common theoretical or practical traits, functions. The separation has already happened when modern state was founded and started to administrate the society; when the law became functional. The laicist state is not in the same leauge to begin with. Religions cannot administrate societies for a day.

OK in an ideal laicist state, anyone can believe whatever they want and start any kind of religion, found institutions but these are treated like private clubs; mandated to pay taxes, subjected to every kind of law. Actually, the suggestion is that two things in society must be regulated firmly; brothels and religious institutions. Becuse these are the two places most suitable for any kind of abuse. So only adults. So no religion in publics schools which is an utopia, right?

You know what, then the interesting point is, it seems we don't even need to go that far. Because besides the 'morality' propaganda pushed for the average religious person on religious education in public schools, one million morons and all... the brain team of religious groups; evangelists and their counterparts in other religions are perfectly aware that the amount of people in STEM fields with religious background is just a tiny little bit of slice. That's their real conflict if you ask me. They are so irrelevant considering the age, probably the last 5oo years- that looks like the main battle for them.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 07:17:20 AM by drunkenshoe »
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2021, 08:07:12 AM »
Then the problem is, why does a couple of hundred years old text still treated as meaningful source with these concepts beyond any historical value.


That’s my perspective but I recognize many people don’t think that way. People often venerate their ancestors and give preferential treatment to traditional ideas when making decisions. They have a sense of sacredness that I tend to lack, respect for "ancient wisdom". Just because something is in the Bible or the US Constitution doesn't mean it's a good idea-- the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment because the prohibition of alcohol created more problems than it solved. From my point of view, the intent of the founding fathers of the U.S. is of little importance in 2021 because the world has changed. What was important when founding a country isn’t necessarily important today, and what is important today isn’t necessarily what will be important tomorrow. The ideas of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are not sacrosanct simply because they were founding fathers. Their ideas do matter but they have to stand on their own and be subject to scrutiny. History is important because we can examine different ideas, how they were implemented, and whether they succeeded or failed.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 08:32:24 AM by GSOgymrat »
"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2021, 08:17:13 AM »
Here is an interesting interview with Elizabeth Neumann, a former top official at the Department of Homeland Security who resigned from Trump administration in April 2020 and a devoted Christian who was raised in the evangelical tradition herself.

It’s Time to Talk About Violent Christian Extremism

... There is, in more conservative Christian movements, a strong authoritarian streak, where they don’t believe in the infallibility of their pastor, but they act like it; they don’t believe in the infallibility of the head of the home, but they sometimes act like it; where you’re not allowed to question authority. You see this on full display in the criticisms of the way the Southern Baptist Convention is dealing with sexual abuse, which is so similar to the Catholic Church [sex abuse scandal]. There is this increasing frustration that church leaders have [this view]: “If we admit sin, then then they won’t trust us to lead anymore.” But if the church is not a safe place to admit that you messed up, then I don’t know where is — or you clearly don’t believe what you preach.

The authoritarian, fundamentalist nature of certain evangelical strands is a prominent theme in the places where you see the most ardent Trump supporters or the QAnon believers, because they’ve been told: “You don’t need to study [scripture]. We’re giving you the answer.” Then, when Rev. Robert Jeffress [a prominent conservative Baptist pastor in Dallas] says you’ve got to support Donald Trump, and makes some argument that sounds “churchy,” people go, “Well, I don’t like Trump’s language, but OK, that’s the right thing.” It creates people who are not critical thinkers. They’re not necessarily reading scripture for themselves. Or if they are, they’re reading it through the lens of one pastor, and they’re not necessarily open to hearing outside perspectives on what the text might say. It creates groupthink.

Another factor is Christian nationalism. That’s a huge theme throughout evangelical Christendom. It’s subtle: Like, you had the Christian flag and the American flag at the front of the church, and if you went to a Christian school, you pledged allegiance to the Christian flag and the American flag. There was this merger that was always there when I was growing up. And it was really there for the generation ahead of me, in the ’50s and ’60s. Some people interpreted it as: Love of country and love of our faith are the same thing. And for others, there’s an actual explicit theology.

There was this whole movement in the ’90s and 2000s among conservatives to explain how amazing [America’s] founding was: Our founding was inspired by God, and there’s no explanation for how we won the Revolutionary War except God, and, by the way, did you know that the founders made this covenant with God? It’s American exceptionalism but goes beyond that. It says that we are the next version of Israel from the Old Testament, that we are God’s chosen nation, and that is a special covenant — a two-way agreement with God. We can’t break it, and if we do, what happened to Israel will happen to us: We will be overrun by whatever the next Babylon is, taken into captivity, and He will remove His blessing from us.

What [threatens] that covenant? The moment we started taking prayer out of [public] schools and allowing various changes in our culture — [the legalization of] abortion is one of those moments; gay marriage is another. They see it in cataclysmic terms: This is the moment, and God’s going to judge us. They view the last 50 years of moral decline as us breaking our covenant, and that because of that, God’s going to remove His blessing. When you paint it in existential terms like that, a lot of people feel justified to carry out acts of violence in the name of their faith. ...

"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2021, 11:37:06 PM »
By using religion, those who want to manipulate the people can take advantage of the fear and hate that is inherent in religious texts. It's all about creating hot-button issues that can sway voters to put into power those who claim to be pious, God-fearing people of faith, and at the same time rake in the really big bucks.

And the Christian fanatics in America will never ever stop pushing for a Christian theocracy. Little by little we're being pushed in that direction.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline fencerider

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2021, 12:22:17 AM »
the plebes think this is supposed to be a Christian theocracy. The wealthy won't bother to dissolution them as long as it suites their purposes
"Do you believe in god?", is not a proper English sentence. Unless you believe that, "Do you believe in apple?", is a proper English sentence.

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Christian Nationalism
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2021, 03:45:05 AM »
Who are these plebes?
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari