Author Topic: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?  (Read 1755 times)

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2020, 12:18:26 PM »
Religious “belief” is far more emotional. People have invested emotion and freely admit to their peers their ferver. Calling it into question is not a matter of whether their religion is right or wrong no matter how much proof we have. We are challenging their emotional ties, calling out that their admittance were wrong, they lied, they have been fooled, taken, scammed. Good luck getting people to admit to that.

I remember being in an AOL chat room for the discussion of Christianity. Somebody there requested prayer for a dying relative. I told her or him that prayer would do no good. Immediately afterward that person logged out of that chat room. Assuming that my comment caused that person to leave, the Christians in that room attacked me telling me that I'm "sick." I defended myself explaining that I simply told that person the truth. Prayer would do them no good. Should I have kept silent knowing that time may have been wasted with prayer when the dying person could have received better care?

So it appears that many Christians want us to play along with their game lest we hurt their feelings. In my opinion, if a person does not want to hear the truth, then they should be free to avoid it.

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2020, 01:03:30 PM »
Christians are always free to attack anyone, including other Christians, who make them think about their religion.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2020, 01:06:55 PM »
I remember being in an AOL chat room for the discussion of Christianity. Somebody there requested prayer for a dying relative. I told her or him that prayer would do no good. Immediately afterward that person logged out of that chat room. Assuming that my comment caused that person to leave, the Christians in that room attacked me telling me that I'm "sick." I defended myself explaining that I simply told that person the truth. Prayer would do them no good. Should I have kept silent knowing that time may have been wasted with prayer when the dying person could have received better care?

So it appears that many Christians want us to play along with their game lest we hurt their feelings. In my opinion, if a person does not want to hear the truth, then they should be free to avoid it.

Yes, just like a judgmental Christian who would be at a funeral, and tell the assembled that the deceased will be burning in Hell for their sins.  I won't invite you to any funeral ;-(  Would you invite Lenny Bruce to a children's birthday party?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2020, 01:07:29 PM »
Christians are always free to attack anyone, including other Christians, who make them think about their religion.

Atheists are free to harvest organs in China.  Atheists unfortunately are as hypocritical as theists.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 01:09:12 PM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2020, 06:13:52 PM »
I was well equipped to handle non believers and anything they could say. I was the problem.
We have met the enemy, and he is us?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 06:19:25 PM by Unbeliever »
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2020, 06:20:46 PM »
Yes, just like a judgmental Christian who would be at a funeral, and tell the assembled that the deceased will be burning in Hell for their sins.  I won't invite you to any funeral ;-(  Would you invite Lenny Bruce to a children's birthday party?
I'd invite him to a bris...
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2020, 06:48:38 PM »
If an xtian reacts emotionally to you questioning their claims due to their faith, just tell them that they should consider you a "test of faith" which means you're basically a gift from god to them.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2020, 09:55:47 PM »
I'd invite him to a bris...

You like watching a Rabbi staunch some infantile bleeding?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2020, 09:08:10 AM »
If an xtian reacts emotionally to you questioning their claims due to their faith, just tell them that they should consider you a "test of faith" which means you're basically a gift from god to them.

While I agree with your logic, most Christians do not want their faith tested. They hate to have their faith tested knowing that it will fail the test. That's why Deuteronomy 6:16 tells us:

Quote
Do not put the Lord your God to the test...

"God" will fail any test put to him. A made-up God cannot pass a test. Understanding this fact, his creators prohibited testing him.

All this grumbling on the part of Christians against those of us who express skepticism regarding their faith violates what Jesus reputedly commanded. They need to read Matthew 5:11-12 which states:

Quote
Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven...

I see little rejoicing on the part of Christians who feel they are being reviled on Jesus' account. Maybe they're not too sure about that promised reward in heaven.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2020, 10:44:30 AM »
Middle Class people expect to be rewarded for their virtue signaling (while driving past the ghetto without stopping).  Middle Class religious people are hypocrites.

If you haven't lived with monks/nuns ... you haven't met real Christians.  If you haven't lived with Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Mea Shearim, you haven met real Jews.  Clergy usually aren't the real thing either.  Most people lead shallow egotistical lives.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:47:26 AM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2020, 06:27:25 PM »
Middle Class people expect to be rewarded for their virtue signaling (while driving past the ghetto without stopping).  Middle Class religious people are hypocrites.

It's better if they are hypocrites. The sincere believers are the people who worry me the most.

Quote
If you haven't lived with monks/nuns ... you haven't met real Christians.  If you haven't lived with Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Mea Shearim, you haven met real Jews. 

Do you prefer these "true believers" over the hypocrites? Again, I prefer hypocrites; they have enough sense not to believe the nonsense.

Quote
Clergy usually aren't the real thing either.  Most people lead shallow egotistical lives.

We all have things about us that we would prefer to keep private. Atheism might be one of those things.

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2020, 08:11:59 PM »
When you question the belief of any zealot of any ideology, you question how they see and understand the world, and their way of life.

It must be very hard for any person to doubt what they believe so far is wrong.

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2020, 08:27:57 PM »
When you question the belief of any zealot of any ideology, you question how they see and understand the world, and their way of life.

It must be very hard for any person to doubt what they believe so far is wrong.
True.  But how is one supposed to change a belief unless somebody points out the errors in those beliefs?  For 40+ years I was a juvenile hall teacher.  I learned that I never knew when something I said or did would register on the mind of one of my students.  It could take 10 minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 months, 10 years, or decades--or never.  I just never knew.  But that did not stop me trying to make even a tiny difference. I was met in Costco by one of the workers there, he said, 'Mr. Mike you don't remember me do you?'  I asked him his name and he told me--I then told him I did remember him, but he has grown in the last 10 years.  He had dropped out of the gang life, gotten married, had a child and was working steady at Costco.  He thanked me for my teaching--and I thanked him for making a real life for himself.  You just never know--so don't stop trying.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2020, 08:48:29 PM »
To be honest, I don't care to change what people think or believe.

Man, we are living in the post-truth era. It's what political theorists name it. They have systemized the requirements of this era.

Bad school education is one of the part of this world system. People just do not have adequate education to inquire and examine their world view.

Man, they even do not have any world view.

For any person who works for Costco, he is struggling to survive in this economy... They don't have time or want or need to inquire what is going on in the world.

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Is our open skepticism hurting Christians?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2020, 04:53:30 AM »
I suppose there was one thing left to blame on atheists and this is it. Atheism can't spread because of atheists.

Nobody forces religious people to question their faith, their religions. There are no atheist groups going door to door imposing their world vision on to religious people. Nobody can do that to a person. They do it to themselves or not. If we could prevent them brainwashing people from childhood, it would be natural-neutral position everywhere but we should be considerate about their feelings. But then you can't brainwash someone into atheism because it is not a religion where people get together in some places, hold hands singing songs feeling entitled to everything by birth and feel superior and good about themselves. Atheism is not some institution you can make tax free money either. You can't trick or lure people into it.

Atheists are various different kind of people with lack of belief in any deities or gods. Most atheists don't give a fuck about religious discussions, they don't even engage in any of it in their entire lives. Not to mention a huge amount of atheists in the world live in countries where this is a life threatening issue, if not directly, in many different ways. 

There are no places on this planet with secular culture, administrated by a real secular system where any kind of religious groups are forced to do anything against their life style by secular or atheist groups.

There are no atheists or secular groups going on rallies and so called protests, or kill people; commiting terrorist acts claiming religous people SHOULD have abortions, they SHOULD stop praying and visiting their sacred places, they SHOULD have perimarital sex, they SHOULD have sex with many other genders, they SHOULD consume alcoholic beverages, start eating unkosher or wear certain kinds of clothes, listen to this kind of music and watch these kinds of shows AND live their lives in a specific style otherwise they are an open threat to their existence. Not to mention you can't stuff atheists in black and white groups who would defend or oppose any of the above.

On the other hand, there are many religous groups and countless religious individuals everywhere around the world that use some kind of means -from toxic attitude/verbal abuse to terrorism, genocide- to force people to live how they believe people should live; have sex, eat and drink, get dressed...etc.

There are countless individuals and groups that think it is a very normal thing, more a 'duty' to go knocking somebody's door, shout at them in street, abuse them in school or work places to impose their belief on them; tell people how to live; 'warn' them how they are going to burn in hell and get tortured for anything they are doing. And then some other who actually torture and kill people.

You can stuff these religious groups and individuals in black and white groups because anyone who lives their faith by themselves and refuse to impose anything on others would be included in the secular group, support a secular system of governance in the first place. They're secular by definition. So this is not just about extremism, is it?

But atheists should be careful about hurting believers' emotions in case they would turn from 'the path' to atheism? Why? Because it is sooo hard to see they're not the most sepcial, precious beings in the universe dropped from the sky to some earth where everything is made for them only.

Fuck their emotions with a barbwire.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 05:03:45 AM by drunkenshoe »
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari