Author Topic: How much is lying a part of Christianity?  (Read 6099 times)

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2020, 10:43:06 PM »
I don't think Christians purposely lie. They're just either trapped in faith-based thinking, or just accept it at face value, or both.

Many Christians, I think it's fair to say, are lied to rather than lie to others about their beliefs. It often seems, though, that they are lying to themselves. Personally, I think the worst way to lie is to lie to one's own self.

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2020, 08:35:03 AM »
Many Christians, I think it's fair to say, are lied to rather than lie to others about their beliefs. It often seems, though, that they are lying to themselves. Personally, I think the worst way to lie is to lie to one's own self.

To your own self be true.  The unexamined life isn't worth living - Socrates
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2020, 08:39:19 AM »
I said "obey authority at all cost." I do hope you will agree with me that we should never obey authority at all cost. Parents--should children obey their parents' efforts to abuse or neglect them? Teachers--should kids obey a teacher's sexual advances? Police--should we allow a rogue cop to gun down innocent people?

I don't think so. All authority should be limited in what it can do. Corrupt authority should be resisted and overthrown if necessary. These important lessons are opposed by Christian beliefs that posit a God that should be obeyed no matter what he dictates. It's a foolish and dangerous belief.

Are you paranoid?  Did you kill the authority figures in your life? (rhetorical questions, don't take them personally).

If you are an anarchist, then you have a sociopathy on a political level.  Good luck with that.

If you are a criminal, a rebel, a traitor ... then you have a bigger problem.

Per Sartre ... I can always say "no" to demands.  He was in the French Resistance.  But can we say no to our lunatic nature?  But liberty isn't just individual, it is social.  This is why liberty and freedom are not the same word.  In liberty I participate in giving authority power over myself, I am not a victim.  This is true even in Nazi occupation.  Sartre was not a victim.  He would roll his eyes in Gallic disdain at today's freedom fighters.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 08:40:56 AM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2020, 03:05:18 PM »
Many Christians, I think it's fair to say, are lied to rather than lie to others about their beliefs. It often seems, though, that they are lying to themselves. Personally, I think the worst way to lie is to lie to one's own self.

I feel that towards the end of my bout with Christianity I was desperately lying to myself.  I needed anything to cling to to feel like there was some kind of support for me.  How mistaken I was.

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2020, 03:37:12 PM »
People say they believe because it's the safe way to go. Honesty is never an issue with believers.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2020, 05:15:25 PM »
All facts are facts, but all truths are propaganda?  It is a fact, there are 27 books in the Catholic NT.  What the contents of those books may mean, or what interpreters (Church) may say they mean ... isn't fact.  If I tell you that there are 20 books in the Catholic NT, and I don't know any better, then I am mistaken, not lying.  If I do know better, then I am lying.  If an individual or institution interprets one of the books of the Catholic NT ... that is an editorial.  An editorial honestly given, isn't a lie, just an opinion.  If I give you an editorial, dishonestly (it isn't my real opinion) then I am lying (not about the content, but about my honesty).

I'm well aware that many Christians are just sharing an opinion or might be making honest mistakes. However, much of what they say that is wrong does not appear to be an honest mistake or an opinion but a lie.

Faith healing, I believe, is a good example of a Christian deception. Peter Popoff, for example, has been exposed as a "fake healer" duping desperate people out of their money as he falsely claims to be able to heal them. So here we have a liar (Popoff) and those lied to (the Christians he fleeces).


Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2020, 09:25:05 PM »
Religions are hoped base fabrications, but imbedded due to force. No religion has had much success in spreading by peaceful means. The sword and gun made religion “true”.
Today the liars are televangelists. Not much doubt about that. What is befuddling is how many ignore the words of their babble and clamor for the lies of the preacher. Hope is desperate. If 50 bucks “guarantees a spot in heaven, the lines are long and the preacher gets wealthy and more powerful. Every con mans dream.

You've made two very astute observations here!

Not only have religions not bothered to evangelize peacefully unless the secular state prohibits their using force, but have you noticed that few if any religions seek a level and open playing field? I don't know of very many religions that invite criticism and scrutiny that they may prove their claims under conditions that disallow con-artistry. The Bible, for example, does not allow God to be tested (Deuteronomy 6:16). Why would an all-mighty God fear being tested?

And yes, con artists dream of emptying the wallets of people as they literally sing his praises. Any charlatan would love those he scams to insist that they give him money no matter what anybody says. The clergy have created followers whose ears are deaf to those who warn them that they are being ripped off.

And Christian leaders don't pay one red cent in taxes.

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2020, 09:30:36 PM »
You haven't been ripped off, until you are ripped of by a politician using ideology ;-(
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Gregory

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2020, 03:19:40 AM »
The lies that we tell ourselves are harmless enough if we are not harmed by them.

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2020, 09:08:40 AM »
I can't say how much the average Christian knowingly lies to further their religion (as opposed to just regular lies), but the Christian leaders almost certainly do. The televangelists who fleece the flock with the most outrageous hucksterism aren't the only ones who do, either, I bet...

Here are just a few good quotes from some "august" personages...

In a strange sort of way I don't completely disagree with those "august personages" in that lying is sometimes necessary to avoid greater harm. You may be acquainted with the scenario of the SS banging on your door as they hunt down Jews. If a lie can save the Jews you have hidden in your basement, then the right thing to do is to lie to the SS!

So as far as Christian leaders lying to defend the faith is concerned, they can argue that if a lie can save souls, then that lie is arguably morally acceptable. Moreover, generally there's nothing inherently illogical in lying to defend the truth. To do so does not violate any rule of valid reasoning.

Therefore I think this whole issue boils down to the need to lie at all. If Christian apologists have good evidence for their beliefs, then it seems unnecessary to lie to defend those beliefs. Christian leaders lying doesn't make them more dishonest than a lot of people; it just exposes their knowing that they have little reason to believe what they do.

Offline SGOS

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2020, 09:35:20 AM »
If Christian apologists have good evidence for their beliefs, then it seems unnecessary to lie to defend those beliefs. Christian leaders lying doesn't make them more dishonest than a lot of people; it just exposes their knowing that they have little reason to believe what they do.
This one is big for me because the whole debate about religion in my mind follows this unfounded assumption that a god exists.  But people seem to be most impassioned over beliefs they cannot prove, and in the absence of facts, lying to yourself or anyone else is the only recourse a person has when they don't actually know.

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2020, 11:22:49 AM »
The lies that we tell ourselves are harmless enough if we are not harmed by them.

There is no boon in this world, only harm.  It is always fatal, often by self-harm (alcoholism etc).  Mistakes, not just self deception or mutual deception, are harmful.  Hence it pays to avoid mistakes (turning the wrong way on a one-way street as I did several times in my life).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 11:31:05 AM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2020, 11:25:53 AM »
This one is big for me because the whole debate about religion in my mind follows this unfounded assumption that a god exists.  But people seem to be most impassioned over beliefs they cannot prove, and in the absence of facts, lying to yourself or anyone else is the only recourse a person has when they don't actually know.

There is difference over what constitutes evidence, unless you work for the Ministry of Truth.  But yes, people are impassioned over many things, including assumed beliefs.  TDS anyone?  Saying a non-fact, when not knowing any better, is mistaken, not lying.  Are you morally judgmental?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 11:31:31 AM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2020, 01:42:40 PM »
but have you noticed that few if any religions seek a level and open playing field?


Just like any other corporate business, which also does not like a level and open playing field.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2020, 01:44:50 PM »
In a strange sort of way I don't completely disagree with those "august personages" in that lying is sometimes necessary to avoid greater harm. You may be acquainted with the scenario of the SS banging on your door as they hunt down Jews. If a lie can save the Jews you have hidden in your basement, then the right thing to do is to lie to the SS!

So as far as Christian leaders lying to defend the faith is concerned, they can argue that if a lie can save souls, then that lie is arguably morally acceptable. Moreover, generally there's nothing inherently illogical in lying to defend the truth. To do so does not violate any rule of valid reasoning.

Therefore I think this whole issue boils down to the need to lie at all. If Christian apologists have good evidence for their beliefs, then it seems unnecessary to lie to defend those beliefs. Christian leaders lying doesn't make them more dishonest than a lot of people; it just exposes their knowing that they have little reason to believe what they do.

I also don't disagree that there are often times when lying is necessary. I was just pointing out that Christian "leaders" are not averse to doing it.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman