Author Topic: How much is lying a part of Christianity?  (Read 6101 times)

How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« on: March 08, 2020, 05:01:50 PM »
I've often wondered if at least the fundamental tenets of Christian beliefs are fabrications--lies, if you will. We should ask if the claims of the Christian religion are not honest mistakes or result from primitive superstitions but are just simply outright deceptions. Also, do Christian clergy and apologists as well as Bible scholars deliberately lie to their listeners and readers? Do creationists lie about evolution in order to lend credibility to their Christian faith?

I think that yes, Christians often do lie to advance their religion. I know of a Christian-sponsored forum that prohibits saying that another member has lied but has no rules against lying! So you can lie all you want to another member, but if you are being lied to, then you dare not point it out.

Such a rule gives liars an obvious advantage. I wonder why the Christian sponsoring that forum slants the playing field for dishonest people.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2020, 05:06:34 PM »
I've grown to think of it more as an overgrown myth than as a lie.

Offline Sal1981

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2020, 05:09:13 PM »
I don't think Christians purposely lie. They're just either trapped in faith-based thinking, or just accept it at face value, or both.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2020, 05:15:04 PM »
All facts are facts, but all truths are propaganda?  It is a fact, there are 27 books in the Catholic NT.  What the contents of those books may mean, or what interpreters (Church) may say they mean ... isn't fact.  If I tell you that there are 20 books in the Catholic NT, and I don't know any better, then I am mistaken, not lying.  If I do know better, then I am lying.  If an individual or institution interprets one of the books of the Catholic NT ... that is an editorial.  An editorial honestly given, isn't a lie, just an opinion.  If I give you an editorial, dishonestly (it isn't my real opinion) then I am lying (not about the content, but about my honesty).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 05:34:14 PM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline aitm

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2020, 05:21:00 PM »
Religions are hoped base fabrications, but imbedded due to force. No religion has had much success in spreading by peaceful means. The sword and gun made religion “true”.
Today the liars are televangelists. Not much doubt about that. What is befuddling is how many ignore the words of their babble and clamor for the lies of the preacher. Hope is desperate. If 50 bucks “guarantees a spot in heaven, the lines are long and the preacher gets wealthy and more powerful. Every con mans dream.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2020, 05:36:43 PM »
Religions are hoped base fabrications, but imbedded due to force. No religion has had much success in spreading by peaceful means. The sword and gun made religion “true”.
Today the liars are televangelists. Not much doubt about that. What is befuddling is how many ignore the words of their babble and clamor for the lies of the preacher. Hope is desperate. If 50 bucks “guarantees a spot in heaven, the lines are long and the preacher gets wealthy and more powerful. Every con mans dream.

All societies involve force.  Hence Stewie keeps trying to kill his mother in retaliation.  If force is invalid, so is the US, so is all society.

Yes, anyone who says "pay me $$ for salvation", is most likely a used car salesman or worse.  In that case "buyer beware".
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2020, 05:46:30 PM »
I can't say how much the average Christian knowingly lies to further their religion (as opposed to just regular lies), but the Christian leaders almost certainly do. The televangelists who fleece the flock with the most outrageous hucksterism aren't the only ones who do, either, I bet:








It goes way back to the founding "Fathers" of the "Church," the one that was an amalgamation of several sects already in existence by the time the "Bishops" took control, thanks to Constantine.



Here are just a few good quotes from some "august" personages:

Pious Lies




Quote from:  Eusebius of Nicomedia
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.

Quote from: Catholic Encyclical X, 195
We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie.


Quote from: Edwin F. Healy, S. J., "Moral Guidance", 1960
At times one is obliged in concience to veil the truth, for there are secrets to be guarded and detractions to be avoided. Sometimes silence will not suffice to maintain the secret which one is trying to guard. In fact, it may happen that silence would betray the secret. Hence there must be some licit means of concealing the truth when necessary. This licit means is the broad mental reservation....One way of putting the question is to ask if a false statement is always a lie. Some theologians answer in the negative....Sometimes it is necessary to make a false statement in order to protect secret knowledge. Silence or the use of mental reservation is not sufficient; the only way to protect the secret is to make a statement contrary to what....you know to be true.

Quote from: Beausobre (theologian)
Christians not only do not say what they think, but they do say the direct contrary of what they think. Philosophers in their cabinets; out of them they are content with fables, though they well know they are fables. Nay, more: they deliver honest men to the executioner, for having uttered what they themselves know to be true. How many atheists and pagans have burned holy men under the pretext of heresy? Every day do hypocrites consecrate, and make people adore the host, though as well convinced as I am, that it is nothing but a bit of bread.

 
Quote from: Gregory of Nanzianus (in a letter to St. Jerome)
A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose upon the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said, not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.




There are more, but I think this makes the point.


God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2020, 06:11:12 PM »
And besides, even their "savior", Jesus, lied. He lied about not going to a feast, and then he went in secret.

John 7:8
Quote
Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

And he also lied at his "trial," when he told Pilot that he had only ever taught in the open, in the synagogue. He taught in parables so people wouldn't understand what he was talking about. And, obviously, he taught places other than the synagogue, like the sermon on the mount (or was it a plain?).



Matthew 13:10-15
Quote
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


And a few other incidental lies along the way:

https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/jesus-lied/
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2020, 07:35:14 PM »
To one degree or another, all christians lie, if only to themselves.  The kindest word one can use is willful blindness.  The leaders--every single man and woman who is a christian leader, is a liar.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline SGOS

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2020, 08:39:18 PM »
John 7:8
And he also lied at his "trial," when he told Pilot that he had only ever taught in the open, in the synagogue. He taught in parables so people wouldn't understand what he was talking about. And, obviously, he taught places other than the synagogue, like the sermon on the mount (or was it a plain?).
I've just to say this even if it's not right on topic.  Even as a young believer in Jesus, I never understood the teaching in parables thing.  Probably because it was taught to me with over the top enthusiasm.  My Sunday School teachers made such a big deal about it.  "Jesus teaching in parables.  How wonderful is that?  He taught in parables.  It's like a miracle."

OK, I learned a Hell of a lot more in elementary school than any of Jesus' disciples, and my teachers didn't go around yammering in parables all the time. In fact, it was never.  Parables are interesting stories... maybe, but they require a lot of teaching time to point out simple things like "Be nice to others, and people will be nice to you," which is kind of true, but not wholly true.  And what bothered me more was that his parables were not even that thought provoking.  I read the gospels, and I remember Jesus talking about a lot of stuff, and it seems like most of it was not in parable format.  Why this was such a big deal with my Sunday School teachers, didn't even make sense to me.

It's like I was being taught that I should make it a point to bring up Jesus teaching in parables at every dinner, and with my friends on the playground, and expect my friends and family to be flabbergasted by the miracle of Jesus, who taught in parables.

When I taught 6th grade, we learned about parables, and as a fun exercise, I had my students write creative parables of their own involving talking animals that taught some meaningful life lesson.  Some of them were actually pretty good.  One of my favorites, which I didn't openly praise in class, was written by a class rebel and was titled "The Cock and the Ass."

Online Hydra009

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2020, 08:44:48 PM »
I don't think Christians purposely lie. They're just either trapped in faith-based thinking, or just accept it at face value, or both.
Eh...maybe not often, but I find it hard to believe that people who "find" holy relics and profit off it are doing so in good faith.  At least, not many of them.

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2020, 09:28:50 PM »
I've grown to think of it more as an overgrown myth than as a lie.

What's the difference? Many people understand myth as not necessarily fiction but as a story that tells a lesson. That said, almost all myth is fiction. Anyway, Christianity is a myth that indoctrinates people with the lesson that they must obey authority--the authority the church leaders call "God"--at all costs. Of course, the clergy masquerade as this God claiming to speak for him.

So not all Christians necessarily lie to promote their beliefs. A lie must involve two parties--the liars and the "lie-ees." Some lie, and some are lied to. Most Christians are lied to.

Anyway, it's refreshing for me to be able to tell the truth about lies. I hated that ridiculous gag rule in the other forum prohibiting telling the truth about another person's lies. Lies, I suppose, were what the administrator thought was what kept the Christians in his forum going.

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2020, 09:29:56 PM »
Teaching in parables is rabbinic ...

A Mashal (Hebrew: משל) is a short parable with a moral lesson or religious allegory, called a nimshal. "Mashal" is used also to designate other forms in rhetoric, such as the fable and apothegm.

Remember, most people then and now are illiterate and the non-illiterate/intellectuals are going to Hell ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2020, 09:31:00 PM »
What's the difference? Many people understand myth as not necessarily fiction but as a story that tells a lesson. That said, almost all myth is fiction. Anyway, Christianity is a myth that indoctrinates people with the lesson that they must obey authority--the authority the church leaders call "God"--at all costs. Of course, the clergy masquerade as this God claiming to speak for him.

So not all Christians necessarily lie to promote their beliefs. A lie must involve two parties--the liars and the "lie-ees." Some lie, and some are lied to. Most Christians are lied to.

Anyway, it's refreshing for me to be able to tell the truth about lies. I hated that ridiculous gag rule in the other forum prohibiting telling the truth about another person's lies. Lies, I suppose, were what the administrator thought was what kept the Christians in his forum going.

Obey authority?  As in parents, teachers, police?  Kill them all, emulate Stewie the sociopathic baby.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2020, 10:39:37 PM »
Obey authority?  As in parents, teachers, police?  Kill them all, emulate Stewie the sociopathic baby.

I said "obey authority at all cost." I do hope you will agree with me that we should never obey authority at all cost. Parents--should children obey their parents' efforts to abuse or neglect them? Teachers--should kids obey a teacher's sexual advances? Police--should we allow a rogue cop to gun down innocent people?

I don't think so. All authority should be limited in what it can do. Corrupt authority should be resisted and overthrown if necessary. These important lessons are opposed by Christian beliefs that posit a God that should be obeyed no matter what he dictates. It's a foolish and dangerous belief.