Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism

[Hydra009]

Haha, now you are an expert on the DPRK, but you just made my point.  The DPRK poses no threat to anyone, except maybe Micronesia, assuming they had any intention of attacking someone which they don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong

[Hydra009]

Ok, let's assume the numbers you present are correct.  What was the death toll of the genocides of Native Americans, Africans by the British/US?  How many Southerners in the American Civil war?  Ok, we'll, you work on that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Obvious tu quoque fallacy is obvious.

The deal is, in a so-comm revolution, it goes as I have described and when there are holdover capitalist apologists, and or militant religions who want to regain oppression of the People, those forces usually either leave or if they dont do that, get incarcerated or killed.  So what?  Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Wow.  Defending mass murder.  I guess you really are a tankie.

Seriously Hydra, why are you even coming to this thread, the side you've chosen is abundantly clear.  I dont see that you have much more to contribute here.  Don't you have a space shuttle to the outer reaches of Nebuli to catch?

Translation:  "I've lost the argument yet again.  You're making me look bad.  Please leave my safe space"

[Shiranu]

Evidence?  No, you dont have any. 

I wouldn't normally do this, but since you expect the same from us...

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/north-korea

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/world/2017/03/13/north-korea-further-out-of-reach-on-human-rights--un/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/north-korea/report-korea-democratic-peoples-republic-of/

http://www.ibtimes.com/g00/under-kim-jong-un-north-koreas-children-suffering-severe-malnutrition-need-18m-aid-2280105?i10c.referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

http://www.voanews.com/a/un-report-says-more-north-korean-children-treated-for-malnutrition/2867477.html

http://www.firststepscanada.org/malnutrition-in-north-korea/

Yeah, what a utopia.

Also, you dont have to come to this thread, in fact I recommend you dont.  Thanks.

Cute way of saying stop calling you on your bullshit, but I'm a big girl, I do what I want.

[Sylar]

It is false to say that the US, thru political process, could change from capitalistic to socialistic--they are antithetic.  The US political bourgeois politics support the capitalists, that is it's function.

It won't happen over night, but it is possible. If enough congressmen were elected to pass legislation outlawing capitalist practices, then the country can transition into a socialist one without violent overthrow of government. That is what is meant by 'theoretical'.

The USSR went from a backward, Czarist ruled feudalistic society to an industrialized socialistic country that became the #2 super power in roughly 20-30 years.  Maoist China did the same thing.

The USSR imploded, Maoist China became de facto capitalist -- these are not the concrete examples that I was looking for.

The key to supporting any particular ideology, any particular socioeconomic model, is longevity; the ability to produce a lasting system in which people can lead stable, free lives. None of your examples offer that, yet you want to convince us to transition into a system which has been proven to fail, and you want to do so violently. You are a funny person.

You haven't even touched on socialist Venezuela, or communist North Korea. What, these do not convey your version of communist utopia?

There was essentially no unemployment, homelessness or hunger in either country after the inititial transitions.

It is convenient to make such bold claims when the narrative is controlled and the free flow of information is nonexistent. It is equally convenient when you neglect the process, the "inititial (sic) transitions", where Stalin killed twice as many people as the Nazis, and Mao three times as many. Even after the "transition" period was over, the communist countries faced many problems that eventually led to implosion/dissolution of USSR and introduction of capitalist practices to China following 1978 reforms.

Soviet Union never published any statistics; totalitarian regime made claims and that's about it. If you are repeating this claim, then you need to provide some evidence to verify it.

I do not have information about Maoist China statistics that you are claiming, so if you do please provide sources. Common sense, however, postulates that an economic model effectively combating homelessness, hunger, and unemployment is not changed unless it has been rendered ineffective.

If you favor capitalism because you benefit from the exploitation of the working classes, especially in the 3rd World, it is your prerogative to think that way--since you materially benefit from it and apparently dont give a damn about the working class, which is consistent with capitalists.

Let us not make assumptions here or make this personal, for I too can reciprocate. I do not suppose the machine you are using to denigrate me was manufactured by yourself from raw materials you procured from around the globe, was it. Such a blatant disregard for and benefit from exploitation of 'working class' -- a material benefit you do not seem to mind, it seems. Is it hypocrisy or ignorance? Or do you think that just because you 'believe' violently repressing opposing views in favor of establishing a totalitarian regime that claims to address the grievances of working class is the way to go makes your material benefit of exploitation any less "unjust" than mine?

Embargos are real, economic warfare, and people die(just ask Iraq), and the US has blocked nearly all other countries from trading with Cuba, it is fact, it is an undebatable point.  And Cuba's main export in SUGAR.

No one said embargoes are not real or that they are not a form of warfare; you are arguing against a strawman here.

Your statement "the US has blocked nearly all other countries from trading with Cuba, it is fact, it is an undebatable point" is borderline junk, unsubstantiated; foreign nations are not bound by US domestic legislation.

Therefore, using the embargo as an excuse for miserable situation in Cuba is old and tired -- I stand by my statement.

I like to judge societies based on two criteria: how they treat their citizenship, and their contributions to humanity. On both counts Cuba and any other kind of communist utopia fails.

It seems that any kind of advancement comes from capitalist countries, regardless of form of capitalism. China's economy only grew once they started adopting capitalist practices. Even Iran has more innovation than Cuba.

[Sylar]

Seems appropriate, to supplement @Shiranu's post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufhKWfPSQOw

[Baruch]

For the hard-of-thinking here.  Korea was a colony of what country from 1910-1947(end of WWII)?  Japan.  That's why there was this thing called the "Korean War".  Look it up.

Everyone has an excuse for being a dick.  I don't accept anyone's excuses.  Such as the current row between Netherlands and Turkey.  It is primarily the Turks now who are being dicks.  This is a historical pattern with them.

[Baruch]

Of course all the clergy are parasites, only second in "bad" to the capitalist owning class.  I recently wrote a poem about the bad ol' clergy, I will post here soon.  But that's why they often get killed in socialist revolutions:  they just won't quit bein' bad and join the good guys. Sellin' "Gawd" has it's perks...for cross dressers.

Maoism was not exclusive to farming, obviously, and some some of those Maoist communes were way the fuck ahead of their time, almost "too groovy".

And if I'm not mistaken, you are sounding like a borderline "anarcho primitivist".  Have you read, "The Unabomber's Manifesto"?  Really good read. 

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=11418.0

A criminalogenic-statist.  You get me exactly wrong.  I recognize, as modern anthropology, human nature is what it is.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Defending the DPRK...yep, dude's a tankie!

[etienne]

A criminalogenic-statist.  You get me exactly wrong.  I recognize, as modern anthropology, human nature is what it is.

Human "nature" is malleable, as per context.  You train people to be dog eat dog and thats just what they do, go fig.

[etienne]

Seems appropriate, to supplement @Shiranu's post:

Lol, yeah, they pay nice little bourgeoisie people alot of $ to make that propaganda.  There's alot of N Koreans "escape" to S Korea only to return later to where they had it better.

[etienne]

It won't happen over night, but it is possible. If enough congressmen were elected to pass legislation outlawing capitalist practices, then the country can transition into a socialist one without violent overthrow of government. That is what is meant by 'theoretical'. (hypothetical)

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!  What LALALAND do you live in?!   Please I wanna go there!  Power doesn't just "give up", roll over, hand over the keys.  Never happens like that.  Read my sig.  The rest of your reply is pretty much the same bogus repetition of US propaganda, so I wont take the time to reply.  I already did to others anyway.  Your opening salvo proves you dont know much about what you are talking about or about the REAL world.

[etienne]

Scatter plot of the population of North Korea, from 1980 to 2013.  The blue line represents the annual World Bank estimates, and the red dots represents the national census figures (1993 and 2008).

Geez, if so many millions of North Koreans are starving to death, why does the population keep going up?  They only have 25 million people there total.  Oh wait, there are these things called, FACTS:

DPRK

Growth rate   0.84% (1993â€"2008)
Birth rate   14.51 births/1,000 population (2014 est.)
Death rate   9.18 deaths/1,000 population (2014 est.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_North_Korea

USA

Growth rate  0.77% (143rd)
Birth rate   13.42 births/1,000 population (147th)
Death rate   8.15/1,000 population (100th)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States

[The Skeletal Atheist]

When y'all planning to stab anarchists in the back yet again? Asking for a friend.

[Shiranu]

Lol, yeah, they pay nice little bourgeoisie people alot of $ to make that propaganda.  There's alot of N Koreans "escape" to S Korea only to return later to where they had it better.

"Propaganda".











You REALLY want to go down the route of accusing other's of propaganda? Are you sure about that?

How about pictures from North Korea... are these all propaganda as well? Did the West hire these people to head to NK and pose for these picture?









https://www.humanrights.gov/dyn/news/features/prison-camps-of-north-korea/

On Human Rights Day 2014, the State Department launched a campaign on www.HumanRights.gov profiling six of the most notorious North Korean political prison camps.  It is estimated that between 80,000 and 120,000 political prisoners and family members are detained in these camps, where starvation, forced labor, executions, torture, rape, forced abortion, and infanticide are commonplace.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/27/world/asia/north-korea-labor-camps-hancocks/

Watching the public execution of his mother and older brother, Shin Dong-Hyuk thought the punishment was just. They had planned to escape the North Korean labor camp they were being held in until Shin overheard them and reported them to the prison guards.

Just 14-years old, Shin says he felt no guilt in condemning them to death. One of the very few North Koreans to be born inside one of the brutal prison camps, he says the concept of family that exists in the outside world did not exist in Camp 14.

"I had never felt that kind of attachment and love that people outside of prison camps feel towards them," he told CNN. "So they were just one of many criminals in a prison camp."

Those, like Shin, who have tried to escape a North Korean political or hard labor camp and have survived to tell the tale, talk of starvation, torture, betrayal and executions. By informing on others, many say inmates could hope for more food or less beatings. Horrific heart-breaking accounts of being quite literally worked to death have emerged over recent years. But the camps continue and Pyongyang still refuses to acknowledge their existence.

South Korea's government is trying to officially document the atrocities for the first time, collecting disturbing firsthand accounts from those who have managed to make it to South Korea, including Shin who got out in 2004. A 381-page report from the National Human Rights Commission of Korea is based on the testimony of 278 defectors has recently been published with names of prison guards who carried out torture or executions.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-korea-north-un-excerpts-idUSBREA1G0OF20140217

"Systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations have been and are being committed by the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, its institutions and officials. In many instances, the violations of human rights found by the commission constitute crimes against humanity.

"The gravity, scale and nature of these violations reveal a State that does not have any parallel in the contemporary world," the report said.

"A number of long-standing and ongoing patterns of systematic and widespread violations which were documented by the commission, meet the high threshold required for proof of crimes against humanity in international law. The perpetrators enjoy immunity.

"The key to the political system is the vast political and security apparatus that strategically uses surveillance, coercion, fear and punishment to preclude the expression of any dissent."

Tl;dr? You have your head so far up your own ass trying to suck your own dick and patting yourself on the back, you have no concept of what reality is. The shit you are defending is completely and utterly indefensible, and that you have even the slightest thought of, "But maybe it's not AS bad..." because you want it to be true indicates something, somewhere a place between fucking moronic and fucking sickening.

[Shiranu]

Geez, if so many millions of North Koreans are starving to death, why does the population keep going up?  They only have 25 million people there total.  Oh wait, there are these things called, FACTS:

Oh don't you even dare try to play the "facts" card, you revoked that right when you decided any facts that disagree with you are propaganda.

â€" Annual GDP per capita is about $1,800, which ranks 197th in the world, according to the CIA World Factbook. GDP is 28 times higher in the United States and 18 times higher in South Korea. â€" About half of North Korea's population of 24 million lives in "extreme poverty," according to the KUNI report.

Wow, so about half of the population, they can either get the bare minimum of food and no luxuries, or the cheapest of luxuries and go hungry for the night.

What a fucking Utopia.


http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/27/report-n-korea-executes-officials-for-enraging-kim-jong-un.html

Report: N. Korea executes officials with anti-aircraft guns for 'enraging' Kim Jong Un

What a great place.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and move to NK if it is so great?