If there is no God. Then someone explain life.

[Mike Cl]

That's exactly what happened. You literally told me that you absolutely do not believe in absolutes.

Do you see the problem there?

The proof of my position is that without God you are reduced to absurdity, which we see when you claim "there are absolutely no absolutes."

But again my question is "How do you know anything to be true?" You don't.


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How do you know anything is true?

[Baruch]

Would you be able to answer my question?

In the context of my question, I'm asking if it's impossible for God to exist, be real, be true. To exist is to have objective reality, to be real is to be actually existing and not imagined or supposed and truth is that which corresponds to reality.

So now that I've explained myself, are you able to give an answer to my question?


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Actually, I can.  Thanks for clarifying your use of language.  Here is my use of language ... there is potentiality and there is actuality.  What is past or present ... is actuality.  Existence is that which is actual, and present.  Dinosaurs don't exist today, but they did in the past.  I don't know if dinosaurs will exist in the future however.  Using Jurassic Park technology, they might.  I can't tell one way or the other.  It is possible, that dinosaurs might potentially exist in the future.  That is an example of potentiality.  Potentiality is a lot harder to grasp than actuality ... and the present is easier to grasp than the past.  That is why I prefer to talk of the present.  So does G-d exist?  Existence is a property of Creation, not Creator.  Creation is the image of the Creator (think of a self portrait of Van Gough).  The portrait of Van Gough exists, but Van Gough doesn't exist today.  But G-d is not created ... and so G-d cannot exist, like you and I exist.  That is why people can't see G-d, or hear G-d, unless they have eyes to see and ears to hear.  Most people are blind and deaf to this, and can't acknowledge (nor should they) things they can't see and can't hear ... or trust the testimony of ape men.  But G-d can not only be seen and heard second hand in actuality, in our imagination (I know people here hate the imagination) we can possibly see and hear the potentiality of G-d in the present ... we can see and hear the future.  That is prophecy ... but it isn't like physics or math, it is personal, not impersonal.  Of course imagination might be thwarted ... it is largely up to us to make it happen, for good or ill.  My hand isn't me, but it shows that I exist at present.  Creation in the present, shows that at least the image of G-d exists in the present.  Draw what conclusions you will based on the image.  People who have been hurt by G-d, reject the image, and so reject G-d as well.  And I am not sure they aren't justified, since as I pointed out elsewhere, G-d and the Devil are the same ... even if Christians flunk the math of monotheism.

[Baruch]

Primordial soup on a planetary scale, interesting things can happen. Here life happened. No doubt there are endless planets where it didn't happen. No magic required. (Unless you barely passed Chem. in high school, like i did. I still don't know what a mole is.)

A mole is a standard quantity of molecules, which may be mono-atomic or complex.  It depends on Avogadro's Constant, which wasn't securely known, until Young Einstein proved the existence of atoms (only took 2400 years).

Interesting things happen even in outer space, even organic molecules and amino acids (what makes proteins).  Pan-spermia ... I knew that that mischievous Greek god, Pan, was behind this!

[Mike Cl]

A mole is a standard quantity of molecules, which may be mono-atomic or complex.  It depends on Avogadro's Constant, which wasn't securely known, until Young Einstein proved the existence of atoms (only took 2400 years).

Interesting things happen even in outer space, even organic molecules and amino acids (what makes proteins).  Pan-spermia ... I knew that that mischievous Greek god, Pan, was behind this!

No--a mole is an undercover agent who has been in deep cover for decades and then starts doing his/her real business.

[Baruch]

I could be wrong.

I don't know.

I think.

How long do you want to keep on dancing this dance? Does any of this have a point? If so is it coming up soon?
You choose to know what you know, and could still be wrong about that. Big whoop? I'll stick to thinking.

Epistemology isn't for wimps ;-).  Christians speak of orthodoxy, which means correct belief, not correct knowledge.  If you look closely, the Church Fathers don't speak of what they knew.  Which is good, because they didn't know what they were talking about ;-)  They didn't know Jesus if a matzo hit them in the forehead.

[Baruch]

More absurdity, further proving my point. If you wish to choose absurdity you are free to do so. Wisdom belongs to Jesus and if you wish to find understanding, ask of God.


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Reality is inconsistent in my experience, which I cannot refute.  The irrationality (absurdity) is a reflection of the irrationality (absurdity) of G-d.  Rationality and consistency are tools, like hammers.  But one size doesn't fit all, There Is More To Heaven And Earth than imagined in your rationalism or empiricism.  You need to get out more, maybe take some LSD and experience something beyond the nut shell you have bound yourself into.  I would bound myself in a nutshell, and consider myself happy, if it wasn't for my bad dreams.  Hamlet wasn't kosher, but I don't mind.

[Baruch]

A you certain that it's "quibbles" or could you be wrong about that?


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The trouble with quibbles ... see Star Trek ;-)  That is where a mutant species of philosopher breeds to quickly to be easily contained ... beam them all to the nearby Klingon bird-of-prey ;-))

[Baruch]

Evidence presupposes truth. What is truth?


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Truth is a person, but a Christian should already know that!

[Baruch]

Truth can not be determined without evidence.

Facts can't be determined without evidence, but statisticians will make you doubt even the evidence ;-)

[Baruch]

I'm not asking how you determine truth. I'm asking what is truth. Truth is what corresponds to reality right?


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Kibbitzing some more ... No!  I kibbitz, therefore I am ... take that Descartes!

[Baruch]

How do you know anything is true?

I am the truth and the life ... say it about yourself, and then you know who you are.

[Baruch]

No--a mole is an undercover agent who has been in deep cover for decades and then starts doing his/her real business.

I am a theist mole ... but unlike the rodent kind, I can see and live above ground.

[Mr.Obvious]

More absurdity, further proving my point. If you wish to choose absurdity you are free to do so. Wisdom belongs to Jesus and if you wish to find understanding, ask of God.

I don't think any of that is true.
Now if you want to claim you know it to be so, go right ahead.
Just don't expect to sway many people. You can claim that you know what you're sharing with us is pure gold. But if we think it looks like shit, smells like shit and feels like shit, we're not going to be inclined to take your turd.

Sad thing when you claim you know your God sent you to us, only to do such a half-assed job of trying to convert us and get us to realize he is real and that we should love him. If you're going to try to do right by your imaginary pal, you should give it your A-game and try to find arguments that could sway us. Instead all you seem to want to do is to let us know we should know you know things we can't know. But stick to that line if you KNOW your God doesn't want you to convince anyone with half a brain.

[Baruch]

Stick to what line?  Sometimes a dog won't fetch a stick, but simply chases his own tail.  Not that I dislike dogs for doing that.  They are amusing.

[Mike Cl]

I am the truth and the life ... say it about yourself, and then you know who you are.

I don't have a problem with what I know and how I know it.  But apparently this guy does.