what would be an actually good reason to believe in a god.

[OldFaithful]

" believe "

@FOR PERSONAL RECORD@

[Blackleaf]

@FOR PERSONAL RECORD@

This pretty much confirms to me that you are a troll.

[OldFaithful]

This pretty much confirms to me that you are a troll.

I do not want to fall in a trap on this forum. So I know it is best to keep record for going through post history.

[Baruch]

But isn't the definition of "theist" one who worships a theistic type of God? It seems to me you'd be more of a deist, wouldn't you?

Careful with categorizing, especially with people.  I fit no hole, and no hole fits me.  Most atheists don't have a firm grasp of worship, and neither do most theists.  For some it is being a well beaten cur.  I don't take to beatings, not by anyone, including G-d.  So as it is usually meant ... I don't worship.  My actions are prayer, even when I am not praying.  Which is to say I am communing.  Usually indirectly, thru people ... not often thru G-d directly.  You regulars are my fellow congregants ;-))  I am using atheists to channel G-d to me, and I to G-d.

[Unbeliever]

Careful with categorizing, especially with people.  I fit no hole, and no hole fits me.  Most atheists don't have a firm grasp of worship, and neither do most theists.  For some it is being a well beaten cur.  I don't take to beatings, not by anyone, including G-d.  So as it is usually meant ... I don't worship.  My actions are prayer, even when I am not praying.  Which is to say I am communing.  Usually indirectly, thru people ... not often thru G-d directly.  You regulars are my fellow congregants ;-))  I am using atheists to channel G-d to me, and I to G-d.

I misspoke when I used the word "worship" - I should've used the word "believe."

[Baruch]

Well I have specified before, that I don't believe.  There is a psychology, called affirmations, that can be used secularly or religiously.  A spectacular example of religious use is the Arabic conquest of the Middle East.  But these are also used in Japanese corporations.  So that isn't me.  I see G-d all the time, hear G-d all the time, act on G-d's will all the time (not necessarily well in any of those cases).  But G-d doesn't mean for me what it means for most of you.  My POV is radically different, even though we could stand together, and look at the same things ... but I don't perceive the way you do, the way most people do, including most religious people who cling to their poor imitation of a religion.

There is a Zen saying ... before I went in the monastery, a mountain was a mountain.  When I had made progress at the monastery, a mountain was no longer a mountain.  After my satori ... a mountain was once again a mountain, but it wasn't the same mountain.  So how to explain an experience that one hasn't had?  This is why Zen can't be taught, it has to be experienced, and you make progress or you don't ... and only someone who has made more progress than you, can tell how much progress you have made.  This is why small enlightenment, a kensho, can be falsely interpreted as satori ... because the student thinks they have completed the course, when in fact they have just begun it.

Remember always, I have studied all religions, both East and West ... and that helped me a lot.  If one has been a part of just one Abrahamic religion, there is no way to compare outside the bubble.  If one has never been religious, then it is hard to relate to someone who has.  I have studied Zen since HS ... and have had kensho from time to time (an aha! moment).  I had what I think was Satori, 5 years ago.  With Zen, the development of the spirit, is to get yourself out of your own way.  And for someone like Galileo or Newton ... good religion and good science were not at odds.  I am pretty much out of my own way.  But that is my job to do, no one else ... so there is no point to evangelism for me.  Each person is on their own path, and I honor that.

[Unbeliever]

There's also the outsider test of faith:


The Outsider Test of Faith


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr6xeLjuDmI

[Baruch]

I don't compare apples with oranges, I compare a green apple with a red apple.  Good historians treat evidence that way too, as do scientists.  So I might compare Rome to Carthage, but not Carthage to Thailand.

Now if the point is simply to debunk, one can rely on canned science, like an evangelist relies on canned religion.  But yes, there is an echo chamber, particularly if one's culture is closely tied to one's religion.  This is not true in the US, except among Amish etc.  It is very common in Third World countries.

[Mike Cl]

Am I an asshole? You give yourself an excuse to be an asshole. God gave you free will!

I don't know---are you????

[Mike Cl]

I appreciate effort to reply to me with an actual example.. Although the namecalling and rudeness leave lots to be desire.

As does your sorry excuse for 'thinking'.

[OldFaithful]

As does your sorry excuse for 'thinking'.

I will not say sorry about my thoughts.
I have no control over first impuls to my head, can only control to certain degrees how it is formulated.
This is difficult because of native language in contrary to English.
So I say sorry for that.

[Baruch]

I will not say sorry about my thoughts.
I have no control over first impuls to my head, can only control to certain degrees how it is formulated.
This is difficult because of native language in contrary to English.
So I say sorry for that.

You need to ease yourself into this section ... do more in the intro section where you started.  Keep to the anonymous personal, rather than the rhetorical.  This is fight club, and you didn't bring any boxing gloves.

[OldFaithful]

You need to ease yourself into this section ... do more in the intro section where you started.  Keep to the anonymous personal, rather than the rhetorical.  This is fight club, and you didn't bring any boxing gloves.

If boxing glove consist of memes and insults, I rather not fight at all.

[Mike Cl]

I will not say sorry about my thoughts.
I have no control over first impuls to my head, can only control to certain degrees how it is formulated.
This is difficult because of native language in contrary to English.
So I say sorry for that.

You say you want to have discussions about your ideas.  Yet your first couple of posts could be seen as attacks and not attempts at discussion.  You came here--so you have a responsibility to tell us who you are and what it is you want to do on this site.  I don't mind discussing my thoughts about god or your thoughts about god if you are here to do so then don't be so judgmental or  combative. 

So, OldFaithful, what would you like to discuss?

[Cavebear]

You can learn a lot from handles...  Seriously, you can learn a lot by just observing.