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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: AllPurposeAtheist on August 01, 2014, 01:39:05 AM

Title: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on August 01, 2014, 01:39:05 AM
Steven Cohen on TheNation is asking some questions the MSM isn't and the whole of congress has been all but totally silent in the fog of war..  Weeks ago Kiev couldn't hang on to a public toilet and now with covert activity is able to shell and bomb major industrial cities with impunity. Something fishy is going on.. Listen to the audio..
http://m.thenation.com/blog/180769-stephen-cohen-russian-american-war-horizon
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: stromboli on August 01, 2014, 02:28:28 AM
Having been a participant in the cold war, I can say that we are better prepared now than we were then. The Russian economy is shit and can't sustain any kind of protracted conflict, we have 6 times their firepower and much better weapons. And we have many more allies than they do. China was a big factor then- they don't want a war with their biggest business partner now. And we still have enough economic clout to outlast them, like we did the last time.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 01, 2014, 07:07:22 AM
Paging Santayana.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: stromboli on August 01, 2014, 08:28:58 AM
Quote
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Gotcha. We seem to have about a 30 year memory of world events. I don't think we'll have a cold war, but I'm not the idiot running the carnival.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on August 01, 2014, 09:03:58 PM
Yeah, no empire would ever challenge our power now or ever.. Not even the 2nd most robust economy the people we fuck might align with.. Especially the rest of the world we've fucked for profit.. No..never..
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 01, 2014, 09:07:03 PM
Yeah, no empire would ever challenge our power now or ever.. Not even the 2nd most robust economy the people we fuck might align with.. Especially the rest of the world we've fucked for profit.. No..never..
Japan has absolutely no chance of winning The Great Pacific War. Three and a half years later...
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: stromboli on August 01, 2014, 09:23:13 PM
Yeah, no empire would ever challenge our power now or ever.. Not even the 2nd most robust economy the people we fuck might align with.. Especially the rest of the world we've fucked for profit.. No..never..

The question would be who benefits from a cold war. Russia might annex parts of the Ukraine and keep it, but they still have only one warm water port. And Russia still has vast oil and gas deposits, but a large part of their economy is the export of it to the west. If we continue to develop solar and other resources, the overall effect would not be beneficial to Russia. The cold war lasted 45 years. At the beginning, the USSR had a massive military force and controlled most of Eastern Europe. They have a fraction of the military strength they had then, don't control anywhere near the territories they did then, and international trade has made China a major economy that is now centered on business rather than conflict. And most of their business is with the US.

Whatever. Be as paranoid as you want.

Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on August 01, 2014, 10:35:55 PM
So now you're getting it Strom.. Russia has utterly nothing to gain here so why do the shit the west reports?  What? Russia hates fags? C'mon.. What's the motivation? The people in the Kremlin aren't stupid and have nothing to gain other than internal consumption, but Putin already hold power without much resistance. The west where we live sells the same story they sell there. You know that. There's something else behind this bullshit, something the press and congress have a lid on.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Solitary on August 01, 2014, 11:20:17 PM
There's more than one way to invade another country than with the military, if we want to get paranoid.  :eek: :doh: :fsm: Solitary
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: stromboli on August 01, 2014, 11:41:14 PM
We are talking about one (1) article in a magazine that I don't even read. Draw whatever conclusions you want from one (1) article. Like I said, be as paranoid as you want. But it strikes me of creating a conspiracy on not a whole lot of evidence.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on August 01, 2014, 11:49:03 PM
Well by all means dipshit.. Don't read the article or listen and call me paranoid.. Fuck off Stromboli. I'm sick of your holier than thou patriotic American horseshit.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: stromboli on August 02, 2014, 01:24:11 AM
Well by all means dipshit.. Don't read the article or listen and call me paranoid.. Fuck off Stromboli. I'm sick of your holier than thou patriotic American horseshit.

And thank you for sharing that. I read the article and didn't listen to the broadcast because I'm deaf, which I have mentioned on here a few times. And it is still only one article and without any more supporting evidence, I'm not going to draw specific conclusions. And I said "be as paranoid as you want to be" which means if you want to be paranoid go ahead, or not. Your choice. And if you are sick of my "holier than thou patriotic American hoseshit" because I offered an opinion, put me on "ignore." I'm still entitled to my opinion.

(edit) I said I don't read the magazine, not that I didn't read the article.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on August 02, 2014, 03:50:39 AM
2nd Cold War? Maybe, in the sense of the US and Russia being angryface at eachother, not to the scale of the prequel though. Shooting war between US and Russia or alliance vs Russia? Not very likely unless Putin does something extremely stupid. I fucking hate Putin, but I think he's smarter than that. The world community is watching his every move now, so hopefully he'd have the sense to step right.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on August 02, 2014, 08:13:43 AM
Well by all means dipshit.. Don't read the article or listen and call me paranoid.. Fuck off Stromboli. I'm sick of your holier than thou patriotic American horseshit.
As long as we're bringing our countries into this, how about you have the courage of your convictions and put your own country in your profile, hmm? Let's see how much you appreciate it when I start dragging those skeletons out of the closet as a "rebuttal" to anything you say that I happen to disagree with. :evil:
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: michael on September 01, 2014, 11:53:29 AM
The people in the Kremlin aren't stupid

The people "in Kremlin" are not mentally healthy. I do not mean they are completely mad, but they lost contact with reality.
That should be understood.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Green Bottle on September 01, 2014, 12:43:12 PM
Like most of us, all i know about the Russia/Ukraine situation or Russia v the West is what i see in the media wether it be on tv or online, im sure there's a lot more going on than most of us will get to hear about.
And there are people out there not just politicians who are manipulating events just like there always have been.
Cmon guys , were havin a discussion there's no need to have a dig or for any of us to fall out, but bein paranoid is i think a healthy thing in this day an age , cos u just dont fuckin know who mite be out there waitin o do harm...
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: GrinningYMIR on September 01, 2014, 03:00:11 PM
I found this today, though I am not quite sure of its authenticity

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-threatened-nuclear-attack-says-ukraine-defence-minister-267842?piano_t=1

If it did happen to be true, which I doubt, it would be catastrophic.

I maintain however that I believe that Russia is not going to throw a nuke out randomly for obvious reasons, such as international reaction and the fact that fallout would more than likely hit their own country as well as Ukraine, which has fallout from Chernobyl
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: michael on September 01, 2014, 04:47:14 PM
Like most of us, all i know about the Russia/Ukraine situation or Russia v the West is what i see in the media

Unlike most of us, I'm writing this post in Moscow, where I do live. So I feel some good reason to inform how it looks from here. Of course, it's only my point. Many people here like Putin's madness and share it. Putin reports 85% support, I think it's about 55%, but still too much.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Green Bottle on September 01, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
Aye Michael, you know more about whats goin on in your country than any of us who have to rely on the media which as we all know cant be relied on to report the truth, but from my point of view it seems like Putin is letting the rest of the world know that Russia is still a force to be reckonned with, and now with banning some western goods he seems not to care about any hardships his people mite have to go through, he also seems determined to make inroads into Ukraine so it seems that it mite go on for a while yet or mibbe get worse.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Hydra009 on September 01, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Aye Michael, you know more about whats goin on in your country than any of us who have to rely on the media which as we all know cant be relied on to report the truth, but from my point of view it seems like Putin is letting the rest of the world know that Russia is still a force to be reckonned with, and now with banning some western goods he seems not to care about any hardships his people mite have to go through, he also seems determined to make inroads into Ukraine so it seems that it mite go on for a while yet or mibbe get worse.
(http://i.imgur.com/Tcwwz.gif)
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on September 02, 2014, 10:26:23 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Tcwwz.gif)
Oi, piss off! 'E tieps in a Scottish accint 'e does!
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on September 03, 2014, 01:02:38 AM
Oi, piss off! 'E tieps in a Scottish accint 'e does!
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/26/263bbec66d658ba0d962dc655b429e9c14fe15afcd9e4598db25ef316d34b0f0.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Youssuf Ramadan on September 03, 2014, 06:26:06 AM
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

Quote
This article first published in March 2014 at the very outset of the Ukraine crisis explains the nature of the Kiev proxy regime. we are dealing with a Neo-Nazi government supported by “Western democracy” and the “international community”.
According to the New York Times, “The United States and the European Union have embraced the revolution here as another flowering of democracy, a blow to authoritarianism and kleptocracy in the former Soviet space.” ( After Initial Triumph, Ukraine’s Leaders Face Battle for Credibility, NYTimes.com, March 1, 2014, emphasis added)
“Flowering Democracy, Revolution”? The grim realities are otherwise. What is a stake is a US-EU-NATO sponsored coup d’Etat in blatant violation of international law.
The forbidden truth is that the West has engineered –through a carefully staged covert operation– the formation of a proxy regime integrated by Neo-Nazis.
Confirmed by Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, key organizations in the Ukraine including the Neo-Nazi party Svoboda were generously supported by Washington: “We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. … We will continue to promote Ukraine to the future it deserves.”
The Western media has casually avoided to analyze the composition and ideological underpinnings of the government coalition. The word “Neo-Nazi” is a taboo. It has been excluded from the dictionary of mainstream media commentary. It will not appear in the pages of the New York Times, the Washington Post or The Independent. Journalists have been instructed not to use the term “Neo-Nazi” to designate Svoboda and the Right Sector.

Composition of the Coalition Government

We are not dealing with a transitional government in which Neo-Nazi elements integrate the fringe of the coalition, formally led by the Fatherland party.
The Cabinet is not only integrated by the Svoboda and Right Sector (not to mention former members of defunct fascist UNA-UNSO), the two main Neo-Nazi entities have been entrusted with key positions which grant them de facto control over the Armed Forces, Police, Justice and National Security.
While Yatsenuyk’s Fatherland Party controls the majority of portfolios and Svoboda Neo-Nazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok was not granted a major cabinet post (apparently at the request of assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland), members of Svoboda and the Right Sector occupy key positions in the areas of Defense, Law Enforcement, Education and Economic Affairs.

Andriy Parubiy
co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU). (Рада національної безпеки і оборони України), a key position which overseas the Ministry of Defense, the Armed Forces, Law Enforcement, National Security and Intelligence. The RNBOU is central decision-making body. While it is formally headed by the president, it is run by the Secretariat with a staff of 180 people including defense, intelligence and national security experts.
Parubiy was one of the main leaders behind the Orange Revolution in 2004. His organization was funded by the West. He is referred to by the Western media as the “kommandant” of the EuroMaidan movement. Andriy Parubiy together with party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is a follower of Ukrainian Nazi Stepan Bandera, who collaborated in the mass murderer of Jews and Poles during World War II.

In turn, Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector delegation in the parliament, has been appointed Parubiy’s deputy Secretary of the RNBOU.
Yarosh was the leader of the Brown Shirt Neo-Nazi paramilitary during the EuroMaidan “protest” movement. He has called for disbanding the Party of the regions and the Communist Party.

The Neo Nazi party also controls the judicial process with the appointment of Oleh Makhnitsky of the Svoboda party to the position of prosecutor-general of Ukraine. What kind of justice will prevail with a reknown Neo-Nazi in charge of the Prosecutor’s Office of Ukraine?
Cabinet positions were also allocated to former members of the Neo-Nazi fringe organization Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self Defense (UNA-UNSO):
“Tetyana Chernovol, portrayed in the Western press as a crusading investigative journalist without reference to her past involvement in the anti-Semitic UNA-UNSO, was named chair of the government’s anti-corruption committee. Dmytro Bulatov, known for his alleged kidnapping by police, but also with UNA-UNSO connections, was appointed minister of youth and sports.
Yegor Sobolev, leader of a civic group in Independence Maidan and politically close to Yatsenyuk, was appointed chair of the Lustration Committee, charged with purging followers of President Yanukovych from government and public life. (See Ukraine Transition Government: Neo-Nazis in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education, Global Research, March 02, 2014
The Lustration Committee is to organize the Neo-Nazi witch-hunt against all opponents of the new Neo-Nazi regime. The targets of the lustration campaign are people in positions of authority within the civil service, regional and municipal governments, education, research, etc. The term lustration refers to the “mass disqualification” of people associated with the former government. It also has racial overtones. It will in all likelihood be directed against Communists, Russians and members of the Jewish community.
It is important to reflect on the fact that the West, formally committed to democratic values, has not only spearheaded the demise of an elected president, it has instated a political regime integrated by Neo-Nazis.
This is a proxy government which enables the US, NATO and the EU to interfere in Ukraine’s internal affairs and dismantle its bilateral relations with the Russian Federation. It should be understood, however, that the Neo-Nazis do not ultimately call the shots. The composition of the Cabinet broadly coincides with U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland ” recommendations” contained in the leaked telephone call to the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine.
Washington has chosen to spearhead Neo-Nazis into positions of authority. Under a “regime of indirect rule”, however, they take their orders on crucial military and foreign policy issues –including the deployment of troops directed against the Russian federation– from the the US State Department, the Pentagon and NATO.
The World is at a dangerous crossroads: The structures and composition of this proxy government installed by the West do not favor dialogue with the Russian government and military.

A scenario of military escalation leading to confrontation of Russia and NATO is a distinct possibility. The Ukraine’s National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU) which is controlled by Neo-Nazis plays a central role in military affairs. In the confrontation with Moscow, decisions taken by the RNBOU headed by Neo-Nazi Parubiy and his brown Shirt deputy Dmytro Yarosh –in consultation with Washington and Brussels– could potentially have devastating consequences.
However, it goes without saying that “support” to the formation of a Neo-Nazi government does not in any way imply the development of “fascist tendencies” within the White House, the State Department and the US Congress.
“The flowering of democracy” in Ukraine –to use the words of the New York Times– is endorsed by Republicans and Democrats. It’s a bipartisan project. Lest we forget, Senator John McCain is a firm supporter and friend of Neo Nazi Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Hydra009 on September 03, 2014, 02:52:47 PM
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

Also, it's pretty disappointing seeing apparently extremely gullible people believe that the Ukraine government is some sort of Neo-nazi regime.  While it is host to the really unsettling Svoboda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29) political party (a party with very little power and membership and obviously, just one among many political parties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine) in Ukraine), the country is still very much a Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Ukraine).
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: michael on September 03, 2014, 03:17:25 PM
Mr. Chossudovsky seems to be incompetent or simply lying.
Nationalist party "Svoboda" ("Liberty" - both in Russian and Ukrainian) can hardly be called neoNazis. It's radical maybe, but to call any radical a Nazi?
Parubiy left that party in 2004. He is now an activist of Batkivshchina, a party founded and headed by Timoshenko, who is a native Russian-language person, so what Ukrainian nationalism can be found here?
Parubiy is no longer secretary of the Council, and even when he was, the head of the Council is the President, not the secretary.

Former provisional President Turchinov and current prime-minister Yatsenuk come both from the same liberal-conservative Batkivshchina party. Elected President Poroshenko is a centrist. What Nazis???

Dmitro Yarosh I first saw on TV in a Russian propagandist show by Vladimir Soloviev. Yarosh seems like a Kremlin porject. Really, Pravy Sektor ("Right Sector") organization is a Nazy-type gang. It gained around 1 per cent at the latest vote.
But it played its role in assuring Russian people that Nazis control Ukraine, because it was the only way to make our people hate Ukraine. Russian TV even reported Yarosh got 36% at the elections to frighten our people.

So there are Nazis in Ukraine, but their only publicity is with the held of Kremlin propagandists.
While Ukrainian government consists of common politicians, not crystally clean, of course, just normal government.

That's how it is.
Title: Re: Possible US/Russian war or at least cold war 2
Post by: Hydra009 on September 03, 2014, 04:40:32 PM
Excellent post.  Yeah, I forgot about the Right Sector people.  Good catch.

Quote from: michael
But it played its role in assuring Russian people that Nazis control Ukraine, because it was the only way to make our people hate Ukraine.
Pretty much.  That's the one group that Russians (and just about everybody) hate more than anyone.  It's surprising how this awfully convenient pretext and absurd demonization attempt isn't obvious to everyone.

Anyway, I found an interesting open letter (https://www.change.org/p/to-journalists-commentators-and-analysts-writing-on-the-ukrainian-protest-movement-euromaidan-kyiv-s-euromaidan-is-a-liberationist-and-not-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience) by various political scholars specializing the Ukrainian right-wing groups who collectively assert that the EuroMaidan protests actually reflect the general Ukrainian population and that many media reports create misleading impressions of the influence of right-wing groups there.