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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: luke on June 09, 2021, 05:09:13 PM

Title: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: luke on June 09, 2021, 05:09:13 PM
Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.

So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Shiranu on June 09, 2021, 05:20:48 PM
Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.

So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?

Unlike Jesus and God, Sokrates and Newton never actually violated the rules of physics or had their entire existence be a logical impossibility, so I think that's a safe place to start questioning the existence of one moreso than the other.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Mike Cl on June 09, 2021, 06:13:44 PM
Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.

So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?
Do a little research on this site; we have had several discussion threads dealing with the historicity of Jesus and the multitude of the history of (and contents thereof) the bible and other religious documents.

Your instinct is correct.  Both Jesus and god(s) are fictions.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Cassia on June 09, 2021, 06:22:59 PM
Newton authored and published his scientific works. We have his books, drawings, written correspondence with others, official records, etc. He invented calculus and discovered many facts which we call "Newtonian Physics/Mechanics".

Jesus appears in the scriptures first in Paul's letters that were written decades after his death. These first writings by Paul lack detail as they are "revealed" to him (as in dreams). As the gospels were written later on by unknown authors; oddly more details get filled in about him. Jesus starts checking all the same boxes of a typical 'savior god' popular in those days. There is zero physical scientific evidence of Jesus as of today. The Emperor Constantine converted and decided his Empire would be Christian and so here we are.

I see a trend whereby many Americans can't seem to tell the difference between reality and fiction.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: trdsf on June 09, 2021, 09:42:54 PM
I can't speak to Socrates, but there are multiple contemporaneous sources attesting to a historical Isaac Newton, in addition to his own books and letters, the reflecting telescope he himself made -- to say nothing of the official records of his employment at Cambridge, the Royal Mint, the Royal Society, and the House of Commons.  Unless your friend wishes to assert those institutions made up respectively a fictitious student and professor, Master of the Mint, President, and MP, in a way not only consistent with each other, but with decades of other records.

There is nothing contemporaneous about Jesus, nothing he wrote, nothing he made, and the accounts in the gospels are contradictory regarding where and when he was born, the details of his ministry, and the events surrounding his death -- and none of which were written during his reported lifetime, nor supported by external accounts.  There are no indisputable independent accounts attesting to the existence of Jesus; everything hangs on the gospels and they are inconsistent and contradictory among each other.

Advantage Newton.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: SGOS on June 10, 2021, 08:45:13 AM
I don't know about Jesus, but the Bible and the stories about Jesus are most certainly false.  So Jesus of the Bible cannot exist.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: aitm on June 10, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Here is a simple experiment. Read the first chapter of Genesis. Now, don’t just read it..LISTEN to it. Most people read it quickly because it is kind of a mumbo jumbo. But what it says...and really says, is the Heavens are the earth and the “firmament” immediately around the earth. Outside of that is water....everywhere. The stars, sun, moon are all within this “firmament”. In other words, the heavens stops at the blue we see above our earth, then it is water. Because how else could water fall from the sky if it wasn’t water.
Later this is reinforced when the babble suggests that a third of the stars fell to the earth...how is that possible?Because the stars are just little twinkly things that a good archer and a strong bow could probably hit. Why else does the babble says the sky can be rolled up like a scroll? How else could a flying dragon gather a third of the stars and fling them to earth?

God says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
But there is lots more whack a doo, if you actually read the babble. Where else can you find such nonsense?
Only in the bat shit crazy world of the babble.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Hydra009 on June 10, 2021, 11:37:39 AM
God says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
(https://wutravels.com/Live/Content/Images/NightUnderSkiesLic.jpg)

To be fair, that's a pretty good guess for people without any sort of scientific understanding of space.  The sky is blue, water is blue, there's a bunch of celestial bodies seemingly moving around (floating?) up there - water is a very intuitive choice.  100% wrong, but very intuitive.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:17:20 PM
Here is a simple experiment. Read the first chapter of Genesis. Now, don’t just read it..LISTEN to it. Most people read it quickly because it is kind of a mumbo jumbo. But what it says...and really says, is the Heavens are the earth and the “firmament” immediately around the earth. Outside of that is water....everywhere. The stars, sun, moon are all within this “firmament”. In other words, the heavens stops at the blue we see above our earth, then it is water. Because how else could water fall from the sky if it wasn’t water.
Later this is reinforced when the babble suggests that a third of the stars fell to the earth...how is that possible?Because the stars are just little twinkly things that a good archer and a strong bow could probably hit. Why else does the babble says the sky can be rolled up like a scroll? How else could a flying dragon gather a third of the stars and fling them to earth?

God says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
But there is lots more whack a doo, if you actually read the babble. Where else can you find such nonsense?
Only in the bat shit crazy world of the babble.


Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:29:03 PM
I can't speak to Socrates, but there are multiple contemporaneous sources attesting to a historical Isaac Newton, in addition to his own books and letters, the reflecting telescope he himself made -- to say nothing of the official records of his employment at Cambridge, the Royal Mint, the Royal Society, and the House of Commons.  Unless your friend wishes to assert those institutions made up respectively a fictitious student and professor, Master of the Mint, President, and MP, in a way not only consistent with each other, but with decades of other records.

There is nothing contemporaneous about Jesus, nothing he wrote, nothing he made, and the accounts in the gospels are contradictory regarding where and when he was born, the details of his ministry, and the events surrounding his death -- and none of which were written during his reported lifetime, nor supported by external accounts.  There are no indisputable independent accounts attesting to the existence of Jesus; everything hangs on the gospels and they are inconsistent and contradictory among each other.

Advantage Newton




Yeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Hydra009 on June 10, 2021, 02:41:11 PM
Yeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
By that logic, Borat is more likely to exist than Jesus or Socrates.

Also, we know about Socrates through Plato and Xenophon.  Erathosthenes was the chief librarian at the Library of Alexandria.  They kept records.

It's not like some unknown person came along and wrote about him decades after his death with obviously legendary accounts, like that as a kid, he sculpted sparrows out of clay and these sparrows took flight.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Cassia on June 10, 2021, 02:48:09 PM
Yeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
No writing attributed to Socrates proclaims you that you must adhere just to be saved from an eternity of hell. You can value his philosophy on it's own merit. It matters not if he was a single person, a woman, or an entire philosophical school.

Socrates is just the strawman in your friend's argument anyways.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Shiranu on June 10, 2021, 03:57:17 PM
I wonder why it really matters if Jesus existed or not; it is his actions that should be examined, not if he did or didn't exist.

Jimmy Harding in 1789 once walked across water in the backwoods of Virginia and even brought a dead squirrel back to life... which detail is really more important, that a Jimmy Harding did or didn't exist in Virginia in 1789 or that he did these miracles?
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: trdsf on June 10, 2021, 03:58:35 PM
Yeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
Well, no it's not.  He's the one who brought Newton into it, so by that alone his argument is broken.

In any case, we have multiple contemporaneous sources regarding Socrates -- not just Plato, but also Xenophon of Athens and Aristophanes.  Regardless, you are already entitled to expect from him comparable multiple external sources attesting to the historicity of Jesus -- and more than just single-word ambiguous mentions from decades after his alleged existence.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: trdsf on June 10, 2021, 04:01:05 PM
Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
If the Old Testament--and particularly Genesis--is false, then the New Testament is irrelevant.  Without Genesis there is no "original sin" that the biblical god had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to make a loophole in his own rules.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: aitm on June 10, 2021, 04:16:18 PM

Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
then he has a problem. Matthew 5:12 or 17...can't remember, jesus claims the old laws and prophets ( meaning the Torah=OT) are true.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: SGOS on June 10, 2021, 05:04:58 PM
I wonder why it really matters if Jesus existed or not; it is his actions that should be examined, not if he did or didn't exist.
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not.  His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously.  If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant.  If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant.  I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind.  We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Mike Cl on June 10, 2021, 05:49:51 PM

Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
Your 'friend' destroys his own argument.  Moses is  fictional and the OT is also fictional.  When Paul quotes or uses 'scripture' what do you think he is referring to?  The OT.  So, Paul's writings, which are the first of the NT, are based on the OT which your 'friend' indicates is false.  Instead of coming here and asking us to do all the work for you, why not research a little on the net?
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 11, 2021, 01:00:46 PM
If the Old Testament--and particularly Genesis--is false, then the New Testament is irrelevant.  Without Genesis there is no "original sin" that the biblical god had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to make a loophole in his own rules.
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: trdsf on June 11, 2021, 08:09:47 PM
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
Five stars, would sin again.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: trdsf on June 11, 2021, 08:12:15 PM
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not.  His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously.  If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant.  If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant.  I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind.  We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist.  They're all about what Paul decide Jesus meant to say, than what he allegedly actually did say.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Mike Cl on June 11, 2021, 09:03:31 PM
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist.  They're all about what Paul decide Jesus meant to say, than what he allegedly actually did say.
If I remember correctly, Paul never quotes Jesus in any of his arguments.  He does not really talk about him as though he was an actual person who was alive and walking the Earth.  He refers to him as being in heaven.  Jesus seems to be an ethereal entity and not a corporal
one.  Richard Carrier does an excellent job of breaking down what in the OT Paul used to create his view of what Jesus was.
Title: Re: Is the bible and jesus really true?
Post by: Cassia on June 11, 2021, 10:08:51 PM
It was very common for many cultures in early biblical times to teach very simply through 'mythical allegory'. Look at the ancient Greek myths, for example. It was never meant to be historical. As time marched on...the myths and stories were still useful and compelling to those who wanted a new direction. They have more power if people begin believing the stories are actually true.