Atheistforums.com

Science Section => Science General Discussion => Physics & Cosmology => Topic started by: drunkenshoe on February 18, 2021, 02:27:20 PM

Title: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 18, 2021, 02:27:20 PM
E: It's going to land in 50 minutes at my time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm0b_ijaYMQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21X5lGlDOfg



Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 18, 2021, 03:14:32 PM
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/overview/

Mission overview.

Quote

...Mars 2020 Technology: Heritage and Innovation
Technologies for Entry, Descent, and Landing
The mission uses technological innovations already demonstrated successfully, especially for entry, descent, and landing (EDL). Like NASA's Curiosity rover (, the Mars 2020 spacecraft uses a guided entry, descent, and landing system. The landing system on Mars 2020 mission includes a parachute, descent vehicle, and an approach called a "skycrane maneuver" for lowering the rover on a tether to the surface during the final seconds before landing.

This type of landing system provides the ability to land a very large, heavy rover on the surface of Mars in a more precise landing area than was possible before Curiosity's landing. Mars 2020 takes things one step further. It adds new entry, descent, and landing (EDL) technologies, such as Terrain-Relative Navigation (TRN). This sophisticated navigation system allows the rover to detect and avoid hazardous terrain by diverting around it during its descent through the Martian atmosphere. A microphone allows engineers to analyze entry, descent, and landing. It might also capture sounds of the rover at work, which would provide engineers with clues about the rover's health and operations, and would be a treat to hear.

Technologies for Surface Operations
The Perseverance rover design minimizes costs and risks because it is largely based on the engineering design for the previous Curiosity rover. The Perseverance long-range mobility system allows it to travel on the surface of Mars over 3 to 12 miles (5 to 20 kilometers). Improvements on Perseverance include a new, more capable wheel design. And for the first time, the rover carries a drill for coring samples from Martian rocks and soil. It gathers and stores the cores in tubes on the Martian surface, using "depot caching." Caching demonstrates a new rover capability of gathering, storing, and preserving samples. This could potentially pave the way for future missions to retrieve the samples and ferry them to Earth for intensive laboratory analysis.

Perseverance tests a technology for extracting oxygen from the Martian atmosphere, which is 96% carbon dioxide. This demonstration helps mission planners test ways of using Mars' natural resources to support human explorers and improve designs for life support, transportation, and other important systems for living and working on Mars. The rover also monitors weather and dust in the Martian atmosphere. Such studies are important for understanding daily and seasonal changes on Mars, and will help future human explorers better predict Martian weather.

Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 18, 2021, 03:22:32 PM
Has anyone sent their names? I have.  :redface:  :syda:
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 18, 2021, 03:59:17 PM
She's down safe. First picture from Mars up at NASA.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 19, 2021, 05:01:19 AM
How are they going to get those samples to earth? Apparently, it will be sent up to the orbit and they will take it there? It's going to be exciting. It will take something like a decade I guess. Sigh...
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 19, 2021, 09:06:09 AM
How are they going to get those samples to earth? Apparently, it will be sent up to the orbit and they will take it there? It's going to be exciting. It will take something like a decade I guess. Sigh...
And ESA expedition is coming for them, about three years from now. Didn't commit too hard until they knew there would be a rover there to greet theirs.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Unbeliever on February 19, 2021, 01:01:24 PM
I don't expect it to find any semblance of Mars life, ancient or recent. I hope to be surprised, though, because finding anything at all relating to life will teach us an enormous amount.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 19, 2021, 02:26:24 PM
I don't expect it to find any semblance of Mars life, ancient or recent. I hope to be surprised, though, because finding anything at all relating to life will teach us an enormous amount.
I don't hope for finding such but I hope we'll find such.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 23, 2021, 02:14:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE-aQO9XD1g
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Mr.Obvious on February 23, 2021, 06:28:44 PM
The fact that these things are even possible, it gives hope for mankind: speaking volumes of it's capabilities.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 23, 2021, 06:49:56 PM
The fact that these things are even possible, it gives hope for mankind: speaking volumes of it's capabilities.
And that's just one country with a rather limited budget (roughly .5% of yearly federal spending).  Imagine what could be accomplished with a more cooperative, fully-funded effort.

Right now, we're doing the equivalent of exploring our room by throwing a cell phone with the camera on and downloading the camera feed on our laptop until the cell phone runs out of juice.  We haven't even begun to truly explore our surroundings, but we've come a long way.  A few days ago, we could barely move from one part of the bed to the other.  A few days before that, we were basically blind to the outside world.

If we keep this up - and it's imperative that we do - we could one day stroll around the block and finally be able to tell if anyone's out there.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Mr.Obvious on February 24, 2021, 06:37:44 AM
And that's just one country with a rather limited budget (roughly .5% of yearly federal spending).  Imagine what could be accomplished with a more cooperative, fully-funded effort.

Right now, we're doing the equivalent of exploring our room by throwing a cell phone with the camera on and downloading the camera feed on our laptop until the cell phone runs out of juice.  We haven't even begun to truly explore our surroundings, but we've come a long way.  A few days ago, we could barely move from one part of the bed to the other.  A few days before that, we were basically blind to the outside world.

If we keep this up - and it's imperative that we do - we could one day stroll around the block and finally be able to tell if anyone's out there.

Reql shame I can't leave a like for this post.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 24, 2021, 08:18:27 AM
Those pics sure look great, gonna stay tuned for a lot more. One thing that is concerning is the argument for ramping-up space travel because our planet is environmentally doomed...the human survival argument. This should not be our motivation for space travel. Of all the solutions, I think off-Earth colonies are the least realistic answer given the climate change time table we are facing versus our current abilities to survive long-term in outer space.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 24, 2021, 08:31:23 AM
The "we can only do one thing at a time" argument is fallacious.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: SGOS on February 24, 2021, 08:49:52 AM
Amazing.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 24, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
The "we can only do one thing at a time" argument is fallacious.
Misallocation of limited resources is not fallacious
PS..OK..well this has me wondering now. How many years will it be before human beings will be able to self-sustain indefinitely in outer space? Maybe we are closer than I think. Do we really need a host planet?
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 24, 2021, 02:03:04 PM
The resources aren't that limited. Fallacious again.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 24, 2021, 02:34:51 PM
The resources aren't that limited. Fallacious again.
Yeah, we have come so far, LOL. Whistling past the graveyard will end of its own accord.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 24, 2021, 03:32:45 PM
Those pics sure look great, gonna stay tuned for a lot more. One thing that is concerning is the argument for ramping-up space travel because our planet is environmentally doomed...the human survival argument. This should not be our motivation for space travel. Of all the solutions, I think off-Earth colonies are the least realistic answer given the climate change time table we are facing versus our current abilities to survive long-term in outer space.
In the sense of "let's blast off to Mars because the Earth is fubar", it's utterly wrong.  Climate change is a massive and immediate concern and space colonization would take much too long and be heavily dependent on Earth for a very long time anyway.  We can't just discard the Earth like a hermit crab discarding its shell, that's totally unrealistic and beyond our ability.

In the sense that Stephen Hawking and others have put it, it's not crazy.   In the long term, we need to settle other planets/moons because a catastrophe could befall the Earth and we would be smart to hedge against that.  Though obviously, we need to get our own house in order, too.  The good news is that attempting to terraform other planets could yield insights to help us learn how to manage our own world.  The two endeavors don't necessarily have to be at odds, in fact, they could work in tandem.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 24, 2021, 03:52:53 PM
Misallocation of limited resources is not fallacious
While it's true that resources are limited, as I made note of earlier, space exploration funding in the US is pitifully low and other, much less useful/important/humane projects get much more funding.  We can (and regularly do) do much, much worse than funding rover launches.  So I'm not sure I fully understand this argument about misallocating resources.


Quote
PS..OK..well this has me wondering now. How many years will it be before human beings will be able to self-sustain indefinitely in outer space? Maybe we are closer than I think. Do we really need a host planet?
No idea, but I can guess.  We already have people living for months at a time at the ISS.  That's a good start.  I expect a permanent moonbase within the next 50 years, though it will obviously not be self-sustaining.  I don't expect any colonies - moon, planet, or free floating - to become self-sustaining for centuries at the least.  Unless we unlock truly godlike tech like teleporters or replicators, I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 24, 2021, 05:14:57 PM
Yeah, we have come so far, LOL. Whistling past the graveyard will end of its own accord.
You just moved the goalposts.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 24, 2021, 05:15:11 PM
(https://www.jesusandmo.net/wp-content/uploads/smug.png)
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 25, 2021, 02:59:49 AM
In my opinion, they will skip any kind of moon project and concentrate on Mars only.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 25, 2021, 07:49:47 AM
In my opinion, they will skip any kind of moon project and concentrate on Mars only.
Launching missions from the Moon would be a tremendous advantage. We could make rocket fuel on the Moon that doesn't have to be lifted out of the Earth's gravity well for one.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 25, 2021, 07:52:30 AM
While it's true that resources are limited, as I made note of earlier, space exploration funding in the US is pitifully low and other, much less useful/important/humane projects get much more funding.  We can (and regularly do) do much, much worse than funding rover launches.  So I'm not sure I fully understand this argument about misallocating resources.

No idea, but I can guess.  We already have people living for months at a time at the ISS.  That's a good start.  I expect a permanent moonbase within the next 50 years, though it will obviously not be self-sustaining.  I don't expect any colonies - moon, planet, or free floating - to become self-sustaining for centuries at the least.  Unless we unlock truly godlike tech like teleporters or replicators, I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.
Centuries, yes I agree. So the argument that space exploration is leverage against our current climate crisis is nonsense.
But if we do not ensure Earth remains a livable world for many—a crisis we can already capably address—what would be the point in aiming for the stars? We may want to produce oxygen to breathe on Mars and grow salads to eat on the moon, but “Earth does all these things for us” already, Massa says. Perhaps, she speculates, the troubles of living in space might make people better appreciate the things we take for granted back home.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-spaceflight-save-the-planet/

Frankly, I would not mind harnessing some of NASA's brain power along with other government agencies for a clear path. A novel scientific solution would be awesome. I am not sure the business world is gonna fix this. Society will pay any carbon tax until it becomes incredibly painful for everyone; then what?
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 25, 2021, 12:26:16 PM
Launching missions from the Moon would be a tremendous advantage. We could make rocket fuel on the Moon that doesn't have to be lifted out of the Earth's gravity well for one.
Exactly.  It's the perfect launch site.  Also, never have to abort a launch due to bad weather.  :)
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Mike Cl on February 25, 2021, 12:40:36 PM
Heinlein tells all about launching from the moon in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.  Follow his plans. :)
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 25, 2021, 12:44:06 PM
Launching missions from the Moon would be a tremendous advantage. We could make rocket fuel on the Moon that doesn't have to be lifted out of the Earth's gravity well for one.

Exactly.  It's the perfect launch site.  Also, never have to abort a launch due to bad weather.  :)


Yeah it makes sense. I had never thought of that way.

Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 25, 2021, 05:44:26 PM
Heinlein tells all about launching from the moon in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.  Follow his plans. :)
1. Throw rocks.
2. Repeat.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Mike Cl on February 25, 2021, 06:22:30 PM
1. Throw rocks.
2. Repeat.
The book--The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress--introduced this concept to me for the first time:
"A mass driver or electromagnetic catapult is a proposed method of non-rocket spacelaunch which would use a linear motor to accelerate and catapult payloads up to high speeds. All existing and contemplated mass drivers use coils of wire energized by electricity to make electromagnets. Sequential firing of a row of electromagnets accelerates the payload along a path. After leaving the path, the payload continues to move due to momentum."

Except in the book is what was used to get back to Earth.  And, remember, the ex-cons who were on the moon were going to use that as a weapon in their revolt against the Earth authority.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 25, 2021, 06:41:32 PM
I helped to design "rad hard" computer cards for a NASA contractor. Basically there is little you can do other than use "triple voting" and redundant hardware to mitigate the "bit flips" and gate lockups as particles smash through semiconductors. It came down to a probability function of course. Space radiation takes a toll on those up in the space station and I recall reading the moon gets 200x the particles than what the Earth's surface gets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceflight_radiation_carcinogenesis
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 25, 2021, 06:46:54 PM
The book--The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress--introduced this concept to me for the first time:
"A mass driver or electromagnetic catapult is a proposed method of non-rocket spacelaunch which would use a linear motor to accelerate and catapult payloads up to high speeds.
Yep, and that would likely work extremely well on the moon.

1) no need for propellants (which comes in handy since the propellants would themselves have to be launched from Earth to the moon, creating waste upon waste)
2) the moon can easily accommodate a longer track (it's free real estate) to provide a less bone-shattering acceleration.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Mike Cl on February 25, 2021, 06:53:00 PM
Yep, and that would likely work extremely well on the moon.

1) no need for propellants (which comes in handy since the propellants would themselves have to be launched from Earth to the moon, creating waste upon waste)
2) the moon can easily accommodate a longer track (it's free real estate) to provide a less bone-shattering acceleration.
I agree with that assessment. Except this is from a novel that was published in the 60's. :))
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 25, 2021, 07:00:27 PM
The basic physics haven't changed since then, and ability to actually create one has markedly improved.  So I don't see why we couldn't do it for real, with enough of a budget and the political green light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Driver_1
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Mike Cl on February 25, 2021, 08:08:51 PM
The basic physics haven't changed since then, and ability to actually create one has markedly improved.  So I don't see why we couldn't do it for real, with enough of a budget and the political green light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Driver_1
I'm up for it.  Too bad Robert A. Heinlein isn't around to give this idea a push! :)
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 26, 2021, 11:41:12 AM
They did do demonstration drops, offset to avoid population centers. One reporter said he was standing on the exact spot one of the rocks was aimed at. Nothing further was heard from him after the demonstrations.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: SoldierofFortune on February 26, 2021, 01:59:32 PM
There is no chance for humanity to survive other than building an interplanetary civilisation.

At the rate of the growth of the population, it is obvious that one day will come and there will not be enough space for people to dwell.

We are reproducing like insects. It cannot go on so.

By the way, who cares for the masses reproducing irresponsibly? I don't.

A few days ago a beggar wanted a little money from me, for his hungry and needy babies. I am normally a good guy loving to help the poorer and I am a relatively poor guy only being able to afford my very survival; but I didn't have mercy for him. Why did he make babies he cannot feed?

I fucking want to marry a girl whom I want to spend the rest of my life, but financial issues confronting me impede to make it happen ffs.

Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 26, 2021, 02:44:50 PM
At the rate of the growth of the population, it is obvious that one day will come and there will not be enough space for people to dwell.
Space is no problem.  Just ask Canada and Russia.  Plenty of space.  It's food, clean water, medicine, etc that's the problem.

Quote
We are reproducing like insects. It cannot go on so.
Global population growth has been steadily going down.  It peaked in 1968.

(https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/06/2019-Revision-%E2%80%93-World-Population-Growth-1700-2100-768x547.png)

But as one might imagine, 1%/year growth is a lot larger in absolute terms when the population is 7 billion than it was when the population was 5 billion.

So between 2050-2100, the total population is going to balloon out before finally contracting.  The problem is that it's going to flatten out at 10+ billion, which is very high and we're either going to have to change how we do things or there just won't be enough resources to go around for a lot of people.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: SoldierofFortune on February 26, 2021, 03:06:05 PM
Space is no problem.  Just ask Canada and Russia.  Plenty of space.  It's food, clean water, medicine, etc that's the problem.
Global population growth has been steadily going down.  It peaked in 1968.

(https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/06/2019-Revision-%E2%80%93-World-Population-Growth-1700-2100-768x547.png)

But as one might imagine, 1%/year growth is a lot larger in absolute terms when the population is 7 billion than it was when the population was 5 billion.

So between 2050-2100, the total population is going to balloon out before finally contracting.  The problem is that it's going to flatten out at 10+ billion, which is very high and we're either going to have to change how we do things or there just won't be enough resources to go around for a lot of people.

I meant a very far away future from now.

The growth rate may decrease but the population will always grow.

As seen on the graphic, it looks like the letter J. Only bugs grow at that rate.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 26, 2021, 03:19:27 PM
Each Earth species is optimized for such a narrow range of conditions that a relatively slight environmental shift right here on the home planet has ended 99% of them. Millions of years of evolution to match earth's gravity, temperature ranges, atmospheric pressure, humidity, low radiation levels, respiratory gas mixture, light exposure, organic (plant/animal based) and exacting mineral nutrient sources, water sources, symbiotic relationships with micro-organisms (e.g. gut flora) and mechanical shock and vibration limitations.

Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 26, 2021, 03:51:56 PM
Each Earth species is optimized for such a narrow range of conditions that a relatively slight environmental shift right here on the home planet has ended 99% of them. Millions of years of evolution to match earth's gravity, temperature ranges, atmospheric pressure, humidity, low radiation levels, respiratory gas mixture, light exposure, organic (plant/animal based) and exacting mineral nutrient sources, water sources, symbiotic relationships with micro-organisms (e.g. gut flora) and mechanical shock and vibration limitations.


Look. Take Valles Marineris. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris) Cover it over with a triple layer of clear plastic. Put self-sealing gel between the layers. Cut caves in the canyon walls for living space and radiation shelter. Grow crops on the valley floor. Station industry on the canyon lips so it doesn't pollute the breathing air. One mini-planet. If you need more water or air just blow icebergs in from the asteroid belt and Jupiter's wee children. They can be timed to smash into the backside (from V.M.) providing heat, water, and oxygen. Do a thousand bergs for thousand years and you get shirt-sleeve conditions on Mars' surface.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: SoldierofFortune on February 26, 2021, 03:52:11 PM
Each Earth species is optimized for such a narrow range of conditions that a relatively slight environmental shift right here on the home planet has ended 99% of them. Millions of years of evolution to match earth's gravity, temperature ranges, atmospheric pressure, humidity, low radiation levels, respiratory gas mixture, light exposure, organic (plant/animal based) and exacting mineral nutrient sources, water sources, symbiotic relationships with micro-organisms (e.g. gut flora) and mechanical shock and vibration limitations.

Correct.

The only species that can adapt to live everywhere on the Earth is human. Actually this is not the adaptation understood in terms of evolution. What differs human is his ability to alter the environment and tool-making(aka technology)

Tool making includes making clothes for example, or air conditioner at an advanced level :)

So no need for bodily changes to adapt, by simply changing the environment in which we can comfortably live, we can spread and spread like once upon a time our ancestors go beyond the continent Africa.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 26, 2021, 04:51:53 PM
I'm sure its a piece of cake on Mars with an average daily low of -109F and and a 96% carbon dioxide and 2% argon "air" LOL. Not to mention the month long Martian dust storms clocked at 94 km/h. The corn will grow like crazy. Only problem is the internet is really slow but the real estate prices are looking good.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 26, 2021, 05:13:26 PM
The only species that can adapt to live everywhere on the Earth is human.
*laughs in brown rat*

And if you weight ocean-dwelling equally with land-dwelling, it's Prochlorococcus (marine cyanobacteria) by a LOT.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Mike Cl on February 26, 2021, 05:42:17 PM
Hail to the biodiversity of earth!  The cockroach! Every where and every when.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Cassia on February 26, 2021, 05:52:15 PM
Hail to the biodiversity of earth!  The cockroach! Every where and every when.
For large animals I am impressed with crocodilians as for longevity. Hundreds of millions of years. Survived ice ages even. We have been speciated for less than three or five hundred thousand years and I would venture to say our future is somewhat doubtful already. Crocodilians and sharks are efficient at what they do. Thermodynamics and entropy reward efficiency. We are the opposite of that.

Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: SoldierofFortune on February 26, 2021, 05:58:39 PM
Hail to the biodiversity of earth!  The cockroach! Every where and every when.

I think their ability to survive in case of any possible nuclear disaster is more than humans'. :)

From that point mentioned above it can be said their survival capacity is superior than us? Sure it depends not on their intelligence. Intelligence is our strategy to survive.

Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 28, 2021, 03:07:01 AM
It's crazy clear. It's amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afp5yVYRCyA
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 28, 2021, 10:03:24 AM
Cool.
Title: Re: Perseverance Landing On Mars
Post by: Hydra009 on February 28, 2021, 04:23:15 PM
For large animals I am impressed with crocodilians as for longevity. Hundreds of millions of years. Survived ice ages even. We have been speciated for less than three or five hundred thousand years and I would venture to say our future is somewhat doubtful already. Crocodilians and sharks are efficient at what they do. Thermodynamics and entropy reward efficiency. We are the opposite of that.
True, but we have the game-breaking meta build of intelligence, socialization, and tool use.  A complete game-changer.  Incredible inefficiency as the trade-off for virtually limitless potential.  The downside of being able to do whatever you want is that you can do whatever you want - including destroying your own resources.