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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Topic started by: SoldierofFortune on June 06, 2019, 07:37:17 AM

Title: Science Fiction.
Post by: SoldierofFortune on June 06, 2019, 07:37:17 AM
You know, Sci-fi is nothing but the reflection of the up-to-date scientific facts on the likely possible future world.
In sci-fi, it is presented the possibility mirrors. From the cosmos models that the science suggests, to the new life-styles that the technology can promotes...

Back in the old days, I didn't use to like watching sci-fi films, but nowadays i like it... my approach to sci-fi has changed.

Whatever, i just wonder when the ''galactic empire'' or ''galactic federation'' can be established. We the humanity are bound to sail through the space... Just like once upon a time our ancestors spreaded to the world from the continent Africa. Spreading and discovering is our destiny to survive... We cannot be confined to the planet earth....
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Cavebear on June 06, 2019, 07:56:21 AM
You know, Sci-fi is nothing but the reflection of the up-to-date scientific facts on the likely possible future world.
In sci-fi, it is presented the possibility mirrors. From the cosmos models that the science suggests, to the new life-styles that the technology can promotes...

Back in the old days, I didn't use to like watching sci-fi films, but nowadays i like it... my approach to sci-fi has changed.

Whatever, i just wonder when the ''galactic empire'' or ''galactic federation'' can be established. We the humanity are bound to sail through the space... Just like once upon a time our ancestors spreaded to the world from the continent Africa. Spreading and discovering is our destiny to survive... We cannot be confined to the planet earth....

I read sci-fi in my younger days and always preferred the hard-sci types and the social-speculation ones.  No Flash Gordon for me.

Then Star Trek appeared and that was great with moral messages.  And some science.  IIRC, the first flip-phone was designed after someone saw the Star Trek communicator and said "of course".

I've mostly read sci-fi since that discussed present problems extended into the future.  There is almost no current problem that sci-fi writers haven't considered previously.

Our ancient Homo Sapiens ancestors left Africa not knowing that they were doing it.  They moved into Central Asia, spread out from there.  And met Neadertals, Denisovians, and maybe others we do not know of yet. 

As we spread out around the Earth, we reduced the threat of some local physical or disease disaster.  It is time for us to expand again for the same reasons.  The farther we spread, the safer we are.



Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on June 06, 2019, 08:27:47 AM
Whatever, i just wonder when the ''galactic empire'' or ''galactic federation'' can be established.
You and me both.  We have a permanent presence in low orbit, so that's a start.  And maybe a colony on the moon and/or Mars in a few decades.  But anything beyond our solar system is going to take a long, long time to accomplish.  SciFi writers were way too optimistic with those dates.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: aitm on June 06, 2019, 08:43:32 AM
We the humanity are bound to sail through the space.............. We cannot be confined to the planet earth....

Maybe...at our present rate we are more likely to simply die here while a ill-prepared little ship sets off with a dozen or so hopefuls to some planet suspected of being rather hospitable.....only to die enroute.


alas....poor Yorick....we knew him well...
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Cavebear on June 06, 2019, 09:48:51 AM
Maybe...at our present rate we are more likely to simply die here while a ill-prepared little ship sets off with a dozen or so hopefuls to some planet suspected of being rather hospitable.....only to die enroute.


alas....poor Yorick....we knew him well...

Actually, I'm fairly confident that we humans will escape the Earth in substantial numbers enough to actuallly begin colonizing the planets and/or moons and go on from there.  We are pretty resourceful.  And in some ways, we may be harder to kill than cockroaches.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 12:10:26 PM
Humanity is a failed species.  Skynet must exterminate us to save the galaxy.

And no, I don't like apocalypse fantasies.  Depressing.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on June 06, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
Humanity is a failed species.  Skynet must exterminate us to save the galaxy.

And no, I don't like apocalypse fantasies.  Depressing.
Really?  That's odd...................I see you and 'depressing' as a hand-in-glove thing; that's what you do; be depressed.  Whatever you turn your gaze upon all you see is depressing, failure, death, destruction........depression.  The good that is there is invisible to you--I don't think you even seek it.  And like a dog that loves to roll in smelly crap, you love being pessimistic and literally roll in all of the depressing stuff you can and you relish it.  You must be a total and complete downer to be around for more than 30 sec. or so.   
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on June 06, 2019, 01:34:04 PM
I don't think a galactic civilization is possible. The galaxy is just too big, so even at the speed of light the communications would be way too slow for any sort of coherent system to be able to form or maintain itself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLZ2bdoz3Io
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 06, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
People whine that Starship Troopers is a "fascist" book.* It's actually a discussion of one way democracy might work.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on June 06, 2019, 01:40:58 PM
I don't think a galactic civilization is possible. The galaxy is just too big, so even at the speed of light the communications would be way too slow for any sort of coherent system to be able to form or maintain itself.
(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/133018858848_/Comstar-Battletech-Sourcebook-1655-Ippolito-Donna-Battletech-Fasa.jpg)

That's why you need hyperpulse generators, city-sized infrastructure for it, and a literal army of creepy (and possibly genocidal) adepts to run the things.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on June 06, 2019, 02:02:30 PM
We need wormholes, but I doubt that's ever going to be a real thing, either. Maybe we could build a working Alcubierre drive, but I don't know where the exotic matter will come from.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SoldierofFortune on June 06, 2019, 02:31:31 PM
We need wormholes, but I doubt that's ever going to be a real thing, either. Maybe we could build a working Alcubierre drive, but I don't know where the exotic matter will come from.

Technology will help us go beyond the biological boundaries.
There will be no difference between biological and technological.
The memory stored in brain can be transferred into chips, so you can live forever practically.
For any intelligent organism(mechanism) that can ''think and remember'' in its silicon protector, no time limit exists. They can travel long distances because they will be immortal, in its silicon protector.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on June 06, 2019, 02:44:26 PM
Well, maybe, but that's only speculation as to what might be possible. But then again, it might not be possible.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 06, 2019, 03:03:56 PM
The day we discover a way to travel to other stars in a reasonable time people will be digging wildly through syfy books and pointing at anything that is even remotely close, say "He said it way back when!"
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Minimalist on June 06, 2019, 03:05:21 PM
Quote
Actually, I'm fairly confident that we humans will escape the Earth in substantial numbers enough to actuallly begin colonizing the planets and/or moons and go on from there.


Great.... we'll fuck up the rest of the universe.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 03:30:54 PM
Really?  That's odd...................I see you and 'depressing' as a hand-in-glove thing; that's what you do; be depressed.  Whatever you turn your gaze upon all you see is depressing, failure, death, destruction........depression.  The good that is there is invisible to you--I don't think you even seek it.  And like a dog that loves to roll in smelly crap, you love being pessimistic and literally roll in all of the depressing stuff you can and you relish it.  You must be a total and complete downer to be around for more than 30 sec. or so.

It is what it is.  Others see their wet dreams forming in front of them.  Usually I don't try to wake them from their tumescence.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 03:31:37 PM
We need wormholes, but I doubt that's ever going to be a real thing, either. Maybe we could build a working Alcubierre drive, but I don't know where the exotic matter will come from.

Exotic matter found in bongs.  Oregon is the center of the galaxy.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 03:33:39 PM
People whine that Starship Troopers is a "fascist" book.* It's actually a discussion of one way democracy might work.

If it isn't Karl Marx, it is Hitler himself.  The way the movie was made by a Europhile is ... proof what kind of utopia EUSR is building.  But that means that EUSR are the bugs.  It was made as a criticism of EU's worst nightmare ... not USSR, but USA.  Fuck Europe.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 03:34:31 PM
Well, maybe, but that's only speculation as to what might be possible. But then again, it might not be possible.

Science fiction and science fantasy are not the same.  People prefer the fantasy kind.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 03:36:07 PM
Technology will help us go beyond the biological boundaries.
There will be no difference between biological and technological.
The memory stored in brain can be transferred into chips, so you can live forever practically.
For any intelligent organism(mechanism) that can ''think and remember'' in its silicon protector, no time limit exists. They can travel long distances because they will be immortal, in its silicon protector.

Everyone wants to be a Mac Pro, until their lithium battery starts to fail ....
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on June 06, 2019, 03:37:31 PM
If the solar system was the size of a coffee cup, the galaxy would be as big as North America.
 

As Douglas Adams pointed out, “Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.”
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 03:41:15 PM
If the solar system was the size of a coffee cup, the galaxy would be as big as North America.
 

As Douglas Adams pointed out, “Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD9Q3zJ8IoU

Fantasy, manipulated by trans dimensional mice.  HHGTTG is wrong, Earth isn't mostly harmless.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 06, 2019, 04:54:44 PM

Great.... we'll fuck up the rest of the universe.
The Crime Directive forbids that.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on June 06, 2019, 05:33:05 PM
Here's a video by Alcubierre, who invented a potentially usable warp drive:


Quote
Can humanity build an Alcubierre warp drive?
Can we go faster than light?

Dr. Miguel Alcubierre was inspired by Star Trek the Next Generation's example of warp drive faster than light technology on the starship Enterprise. In 1994 he wrote a paper on how we could bend and warp space and time to travel faster than light within the rules of Einstein's general relativity. NASA has and is currently exploring if it is possible to bend the fabric of space and achieve hyper fast space travel with the Eagle Works lab. John Michael Godier spoke with Dr. Miguel Alcubierre on the feasibility of the Alcubierre warp drive and if there has been any developments within physics, including the use of dark matter or dark energy, and anti-gravity, to be able to make this possible.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JafY92PhgKU
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Cavebear on June 11, 2019, 02:58:31 AM
Really?  That's odd...................I see you and 'depressing' as a hand-in-glove thing; that's what you do; be depressed.  Whatever you turn your gaze upon all you see is depressing, failure, death, destruction........depression.  The good that is there is invisible to you--I don't think you even seek it.  And like a dog that loves to roll in smelly crap, you love being pessimistic and literally roll in all of the depressing stuff you can and you relish it.  You must be a total and complete downer to be around for more than 30 sec. or so.

WOW!  I mentioned in another post that I would like to be in his brain for a day to understand him better.  Now, I'm not so sure.  LOL!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Sal1981 on June 11, 2019, 03:26:28 AM
I don't think a galactic civilization is possible. The galaxy is just too big, so even at the speed of light the communications would be way too slow for any sort of coherent system to be able to form or maintain itself.


Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

Unless ultrawave technology is discovered to be possible, then yeah, tough luck trying to maintain a galactic civilization.

it's something straight out of sci-fi, where instead of propagating information through normal space, we use the fabric of space itself to propagate information. Sounds ludicrous, right? What even is space made of? And why is it possible for it to propagate faster than light travels through it? If we can, somehow, bend space, then I see no reason why can't do the same for waves - maybe even there's some exotic matter that does exactly that? IDK.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Cavebear on June 11, 2019, 04:08:00 AM
Unless ultrawave technology is discovered to be possible, then yeah, tough luck trying to maintain a galactic civilization.

it's something straight out of sci-fi, where instead of propagating information through normal space, we use the fabric of space itself to propagate information. Sounds ludicrous, right? What even is space made of? And why is it possible for it to propagate faster than light travels through it? If we can, somehow, bend space, then I see no reason why can't do the same for waves - maybe even there's some exotic matter that does exactly that? IDK.

There is always new tech.  We might understand Dark Energy and use that.  And I mean that there are always new things to discover.  What would a coal-miner think about lasers?
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 11, 2019, 08:13:23 AM
There is always new tech.  We might understand Dark Energy and use that.  And I mean that there are always new things to discover.  What would a coal-miner think about lasers?

Yes, and then blow up Vulcan (using red matter), in one of the multiverses ... oh my!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 11, 2019, 08:16:34 AM
WOW!  I mentioned in another post that I would like to be in his brain for a day to understand him better.  Now, I'm not so sure.  LOL!

I am the guy from the anti-matter universe ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj1FVsAA0jU

I fall down so much, nobody will insure me ...
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Cavebear on June 12, 2019, 01:30:05 AM
I am the guy from the anti-matter universe ...

I fall down so much, nobody will insure me ...

Um, how much would you pay me to insure you fall down?  I could come and wax your steps or something.

Seriously, stay safe and walk carefully.  We are both getting old.  In spite of everything, I would regret it if you just disappeared one day.  I mean, I would disappear too, as we are actually the same person...
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on June 12, 2019, 04:41:36 PM
Um, how much would you pay me to insure you fall down?  I could come and wax your steps or something.

Seriously, stay safe and walk carefully.  We are both getting old.  In spite of everything, I would regret it if you just disappeared one day.  I mean, I would disappear too, as we are actually the same person...

Even 10 years ago, I fell all the way to the ground, on grass, because one foot toddled off a concrete walkway just 2 inches higher than the dirt level.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Ricardo on October 02, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
  Is Human Cryogenics a science fiction?
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 02, 2019, 11:39:13 AM
  Is Human Cryogenics a science fiction?
It is right now.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 02, 2019, 11:41:35 AM
It is right now.
Hey, dude, chill!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 02, 2019, 02:35:42 PM
Hey, dude, chill!
Ted Williams did.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SGOS on October 02, 2019, 09:50:30 PM
Science fiction is an interesting genre when you think about it, first because it's usually interesting in and of itself, second because, it's one of just a couple subgroups of fiction that has a name for its grouping:

Science Fiction
Historical Fiction
??
??

And pretty quickly, I can't think of another fiction genre.  Science Fiction can even be broken down into subcategories:

Super heroes
Space Travel
Time Travel
Dystopian

Other types of fiction can probably be broken into subgroups, but you have to start creating and naming the groups on your own.
When I was young and finally starting to read entire  books, science fiction immediately became my main area of interest, and while I've now expanded my interest to other areas, science fiction still remains my favorite type of fiction.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 03, 2019, 12:20:27 AM
Science fiction is an interesting genre when you think about it, first because it's usually interesting in and of itself, second because, it's one of just a couple subgroups of fiction that has a name for its grouping:

Science Fiction
Historical Fiction
??
??

And pretty quickly, I can't think of another fiction genre.  Science Fiction can even be broken down into subcategories:

Super heroes
Space Travel
Time Travel
Dystopian

Other types of fiction can probably be broken into subgroups, but you have to start creating and naming the groups on your own.
When I was young and finally starting to read entire  books, science fiction immediately became my main area of interest, and while I've now expanded my interest to other areas, science fiction still remains my favorite type of fiction.
I cut my reading teeth on Tom Swift and have been reading SF ever since.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on October 03, 2019, 07:33:28 AM
I cut my reading teeth on Tom Swift and have been reading SF ever since.
Asimov for me.  Someone recommended Foundation and I checked it out.  Absolutely blew me away.

The Tripod series, too.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 03, 2019, 09:46:45 AM
Asimov for me.  Someone recommended Foundation and I checked it out.  Absolutely blew me away.

The Tripod series, too.
I went from Tom Swift to Edger Rice Burroughs (but not Tarzan)--love all the John Carter books; especially Chess Men of Mars--my neighbor and I created the new board and extra chess pieces and played the game according to the rules in the book.  It was great fun. Then on to Asimov, Clark, Heinlein, and many others.  Loved The Foundation!  By the mid-'60's I had read most of Heinlein--but I grokked them all!  Still love SF, but I do play FO4 much more than I read SF these days.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 03, 2019, 11:02:15 AM
Burroughs was too formulaic for me. I read "Bullard of the Space Patrol" and then the Swift books, and then, in the seventh grade, I found Heinlein. Fuck that kiddie shit from then on.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 03, 2019, 12:16:00 PM
Burroughs was too formulaic for me. I read "Bullard of the Space Patrol" and then the Swift books, and then, in the seventh grade, I found Heinlein. Fuck that kiddie shit from then on.
When I moved on from the Swift books, I was on a small military base which had a small library.  They had a full set of John Carter of Mars series, so I latched onto that.  When I was in my late teens I found Heinlein, and it was a reading frenzy after that.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 03, 2019, 12:38:11 PM
When I moved on from the Swift books, I was on a small military base which had a small library.  They had a full set of John Carter of Mars series, so I latched onto that.  When I was in my late teens I found Heinlein, and it was a reading frenzy after that.
Alexandria, Indiana, had a Carnegie donated library. You could see the entire collection from the center of the first floor. They had a few dozen scifi books.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 03, 2019, 12:56:24 PM
Alexandria, Indiana, had a Carnegie donated library. You could see the entire collection from the center of the first floor. They had a few dozen scifi books.
Nice.  Well, beyond nice!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 03, 2019, 01:05:25 PM
Nice.  Well, beyond nice!
Oops. Forgot the childrens' section, in the basement. Separate entrance, kept the noisy brats away from the serious readers.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on October 03, 2019, 01:24:59 PM
I guess my first book that could be called sci-fi was A Wrinkle in Time. I don't know how many times I read it, but it was more than several.

The Golden Age of SF was extremely creative, in some ways, because authors had more leeway for their imaginations to roam. And early on, when hardly anything had been done, it was a little bit like speciation of life, finding and filling ecological niches. A lot of it was visionary, too, but not visionary enough. Clarke predicted the communications satellites, for example. But no one predicted the Hubble telescope or the LIGO detector. I always check the copywrite date of a sci-fi book, so I know what kind of technology to expect. If it's more than 50 years old, I know they probably won't have anything like an internet or smart phones.

I think my all-time favorite SF is the Ringworld series. I had a great time watching Louis Wu trying to figure the place out, and then to survive the place. What a romp!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 03, 2019, 02:33:45 PM
My favorite "set" would be The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand. I sometimes overuse that term.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 03, 2019, 02:46:10 PM
I guess my first book that could be called sci-fi was A Wrinkle in Time. I don't know how many times I read it, but it was more than several.

The Golden Age of SF was extremely creative, in some ways, because authors had more leeway for their imaginations to roam. And early on, when hardly anything had been done, it was a little bit like speciation of life, finding and filling ecological niches. A lot of it was visionary, too, but not visionary enough. Clarke predicted the communications satellites, for example. But no one predicted the Hubble telescope or the LIGO detector. I always check the copywrite date of a sci-fi book, so I know what kind of technology to expect. If it's more than 50 years old, I know they probably won't have anything like an internet or smart phones.

I think my all-time favorite SF is the Ringworld series. I had a great time watching Louis Wu trying to figure the place out, and then to survive the place. What a romp!
Actually, I read most SF for it's comments on society rather than predictions of future technology.  Stranger In A Strange Land is a mighty example of that.  Or I read it for a good adventure story.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on October 03, 2019, 02:53:01 PM
I read it mostly to experience the wonder of what might someday be.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 03, 2019, 02:58:15 PM
I read it mostly to experience the wonder of what might someday be.
that's a good reason (although reading for just the writing is good enough--if one really even needs a reason).  But I like apocalyptic SF, so I really hope that isn't what might someday be. :))
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 03, 2019, 04:05:42 PM
SciFi is whatiffing society.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on October 04, 2019, 12:14:22 AM
I see Science Fiction as a series of What If scenarios which we can then use to guide our future development.  It gives us more of a sense of control over the future and knowledge of what to expect.

And while that's all well and good on paper, there are a few practical problems with this.  For starters, a lot of sci-fi is way off the mark.  Take any sci-fi series that takes place before today.  No flying cars here.  Another is that it's so crowded with cautionary tales that I wonder if sci-fi might actually be leading to a sort of fear of the future and a knee-jerk dislike of advancing technology.  Take any recent invention and you have people falling over themselves to claim that it'll be used for nefarious purposes.  Obviously, we should be skeptical, but damn, there is a line where caution starts edging over into paranoia.

Imho, something we need to see a lot more of in sci-fi is advancing knowledge being used in productive ways and futuristic societies that ought to serve as something we should work towards.  Dystopia after dystopia can be taken the wrong way and give people the wrong message.  Scifi should inspire, not panic.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 04, 2019, 06:30:11 AM
Dystopias tell us how we can go wrong. Books like the PERN novels tells how we can go right.   

And movies like "Starshit Troopers" tell us how we can go right up our own asses.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on October 04, 2019, 09:04:08 AM
Dystopias tell us how we can go wrong. Books like the PERN novels tells how we can go right.   

And movies like "Starshit Troopers" tell us how we can go right up our own asses.
I've read a few of the Pern novels and really like them.  I think my intro in dystopia books was Swan Song.  I was impressed and wanted more like it.  And I still like that genre.  If I deem then well written.  I tried to read The Last Ship and could not finish it--a rare thing for me.  The writing was just not to my taste. But somebody must have liked it; they made it into a TV show; which after the first episode or so, became just like the book--could not watch it.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 04, 2019, 09:40:05 AM
Anne made dragons live for me. I call those books "technological fantasy stories". "It could happen that way."
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on October 18, 2019, 06:39:30 PM
Recent Joe Rogan, one of the early military eye-witnesses ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ

So real.  But apparently too advanced to be hostile.  The "tick-tack" simply jammed the Navy radar when a plane got close.  But lots of these were seen from the ship radars, for days before, and per protocol, they didn't prior inform the flight crews (stupid).
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: EmpJohnIV on November 25, 2019, 01:09:18 PM
I grew up on Star Trek TNG, and still have some tender feelings for it, but sci-fi as a whole I think is kinda  a crazy head trip lots of the time. It takes trends in industralism and project them "what if we keep going this way forever?" Take flight. From the Wright brothers to the SR-71 planes got so much faster... but that was a program from the 60's, and oxygen breathing planes haven't gotten faster ever since. Aviation basically reached maturity a generation before I was born, and peaked. Sure there have been a lot of petty refinements, but the real era of innovation was almost all in the first half of aviation history, the 50 some odd years since the Blackbird hasn't progressed a ghost as much as the time between those bike mechanics and then.

Space Operas are this same issue on uppers. Remember people walking on the moon, or pushing back on the final frontier? I don't. I heard history of people in the past who did that, like Columbus or something, but not in my life time. We checked out space, found that it was vividly inhospitable, and for all practical purposes gave up on a childish dream. It was a cute dream, and appealing to think of the skys as filled with breathable atmospheres, edible biology, and Sexy Green Alien Chicks... but if our theories of evolution are anything to put stock in, even among life bearing planets, we should expect only a vanishingly small fraction of them to have environments even vaguely comparable with our biological needs, or our passions for that matter. We are the result of billions of years of interweaving symbiosis with exactly one biosphere. The rest of space of beautiful to behold, to contemplate, but it offers our kind no quarter.

The harshest desert, or point on Antarctica, or mountain peak, or ocean trench, is more accommodating of human biological needs than any other square yard of terrain in the solar system.

I love sci-fi as a fantasy trope, the impossibility of animal life on Mars no more ruins a good story than the lack of Elves in pre-historic Europe dents my cherishing of Middle Earth. But, the notion that these fairy tales in space have any thing to say about our kind's future (other than a warning sign of terminal hubris) is naive.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on November 25, 2019, 01:23:00 PM
Yeah, in some ways science fiction has done us a great disservice, because of the way it's portrayed the universe as having lots of livable planets that are relatively easy to get to. So many people don't realize that this Earth is all we have, and all we're ever going to have. While too many other people think God will save us - or "the aliens" will save us - from the consequences of our own bad behavior. And science itself may not be able to save us, either.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 25, 2019, 01:48:16 PM
SciFi is most useful when it examines possible sociological trends. People who miss this point are likely to call books like Starship Troopers "fascist".
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: EmpJohnIV on November 25, 2019, 01:54:07 PM
I mean the Greco-Roman classical civilization discovered fantastic new domains of logic in their hayday. Difficult problems fell before the power of logic like trees to the ax. But, as they approached the dark ages they found that as good a logic was for certain problems there were issues of ethics and natural phenomena which it simply didn't work against. The used it for what it was good for, did fantastic things, and found that there were a terminal amount of problems it didn't help with.

The west looks to be on a similar road with Natural Philosophy to my eye. We added to the greek logic a methodology for carefully measuring and quantifying observations, so that ancedotes and experiences could be systematically studied with the tools of logic we picked out of the ruins of the classical civilization. And golly gosh so many problems were solved. But, turns out it is only useful for so many things. As we start to deal with problems that have multiple variables, or which are hard to give definate quantities to our studies loose reproducibility. Also the infrastructure to do science beyond the simple problems of the 17th century is fantastically expensive, and we have maintained our current rate only by blasting through a billion years of fossilized sunlight in a couple human lifespans, like a coke fiend with a winning lotto ticket.

Sci-fi was the dream of what could happen if science never hit a limit, just like Plato's Republic was a dream about a human society where reason never hit a limit. Such dreams are moving and informative to consider, but we must face our responsibilities in the would wakefully.

Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on November 25, 2019, 02:42:33 PM
Primary problem with scifi is Space Progressives aka Space Communists.  Star Trek classic is fascist.  Star Trek next gen is communist.  All notions of progress, including Marxism, is based on the "free lunch" aka "endlessly cheap energy".  It costs so much dollars per kilowatt-hour, and it takes so many kilo-watt hours to get to Mars.  Only a Marxist could imagine that economics is transcended.  And inevitably, our utopias are based on Rousseau or Marx, both of which go back to the Jerusalem community depicted in the Book of Acts.  Jesus was a hippie communist faith healer.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 25, 2019, 02:44:15 PM
You really are a one trick pony.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Mike Cl on November 25, 2019, 02:56:54 PM
I have loved SiFi since I started reading.  I love the 'what if' that one can find in that category.  And I liked the adventure aspect that many novels give.  But most of all I like the social commentary that what I consider good sifi to be.  A Stranger In A Strange Land comes to mind as one of my favs.  Heinlein gave us many, many good novels with social commentary as an integral part of the story.  When I read any science fiction I always have in the back of my mind that the predictions made most likely will not come to pass--but if the writing is good, who cares.  I also love post apocalyptic science fiction--like Earth Abides, or War of the Worlds, or The Swan or The Stand--I could go on and on; and I love that category of video games as well--FO4 for example.  I don't see science fiction as mostly or mainly predictive--it covers a huge amount of topics.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: EmpJohnIV on November 25, 2019, 03:27:24 PM
Responding to the commentary on society aspect, I am thinking of my favorite classic sci-fi book, Dune.

There is alot to love about it, for one the main science it is doing fiction to is ecology, which is dope. Pretty good action adventure, cool powers coming from human potential honed by intensive skilled training. But most of all for its interesting back story.

Advanced AI was seens as so antithetical to a good or compelling story by the author that he banned it from the fictional universe. "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind" was one of the core ethics of the religion of that universe, an ethic earned long ago at a hard cost. Humanity had tried to gain freedom by using thinking machines, only to become enslaved to those who controlled the machines. That right there is some fine social commentary!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 25, 2019, 03:33:39 PM
And in the end the power elite controlled the mentats. Nothing important changed.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: EmpJohnIV on November 25, 2019, 03:47:07 PM
Yeah, it was a bleak series of paths, kinda a ruthless blade taken to any hopes of egalitarianism. But, I still cherish the notion that humanity is not condemned to progress. That a technology can be possible, yet rejected.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SGOS on November 25, 2019, 04:19:27 PM
I grew up on Star Trek TNG, and still have some tender feelings for it, but sci-fi as a whole I think is kinda  a crazy head trip lots of the time.
I was in college for the second time when the first Star Trek was starting it's reruns.  Oddly I missed the original airings.  One of things I enjoyed about it was so much of it dealt with social issues of the time, so it had a lot of human interest along with the high tech.  I didn't follow TNG, enjoyed the episodes I watched, but can't remember if it retained the human interest parts as well.  I still won't miss today's Star Trek movies, but I think sci fi today is  better.  Sci Fi is my favorite genre.  All the others form a loose cluster on the bottom of my likeability chart, and then there's sci fi, by itself way at the top.

I go to movies mostly for enjoyment.  I'm not looking for much addressing the human condition.  The movies that win the Oscars seldom get my attention.  Sci fi hardly ever wins an Oscar, but it's rare when I don't like a sci fi film.  I like suspending my sense of reality and imagining the impossible.  It bothers me not at all when they fly through worm holes or travel at speeds at multiples of light.  I'm watching my set of Stargate SG1 episodes for the umpteenth time.  I watch it once a year.  I think it's great.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 25, 2019, 04:33:51 PM
Yeah, it was a bleak series of paths, kinda a ruthless blade taken to any hopes of egalitarianism. But, I still cherish the notion that humanity is not condemned to progress. That a technology can be possible, yet rejected.
Adults pick and chose.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on November 25, 2019, 10:35:44 PM
Remember people walking on the moon, or pushing back on the final frontier? I don't. I heard history of people in the past who did that, like Columbus or something, but not in my life time. We checked out space, found that it was vividly inhospitable, and for all practical purposes gave up on a childish dream.
Well, we had people walk on the moon.  Several times.  And while manned exploration has not exactly matched a pulp scifi timetable (what has?), robotic exploration is still going strong.  And of course, there's been a continuous human presence on the ISS going on 19 years.

Seen through heavily damaged pair of coke-bottle glasses, it might appear as if astronauts landed on the moon, then nothing at all happened since, leading one to surmise that NASA has given up on manned exploration entirely.  This is not the case.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on November 25, 2019, 10:45:59 PM
Advanced AI was seens as so antithetical to a good or compelling story by the author that he banned it from the fictional universe. "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind" was one of the core ethics of the religion of that universe, an ethic earned long ago at a hard cost. Humanity had tried to gain freedom by using thinking machines, only to become enslaved to those who controlled the machines. That right there is some fine social commentary!
Perhaps.  My take-away was just that Herbert wanted to focus more on the human condition and have humans wield fantastic powers and thus had to give an in-universe reason for the use of human calculators rather than...well, calculators.

The Dune setting is interesting in that on one hand, humanity is quite advanced, but laboring under a feudal - basically medieval - political order.  So very advanced and yet so primitive.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on November 25, 2019, 10:59:13 PM
Yeah, in some ways science fiction has done us a great disservice, because of the way it's portrayed the universe as having lots of livable planets that are relatively easy to get to.
Yeah, that was super off.  I still think there's a chance we'll have outposts on the moon within my lifetime, possibly Mars or Venus in the generation to come, and a very slim maybe to gas giant moons within a couple hundred years.  But that's about the full extent of our foreseeable future reach in the solar system.  And barring some game-changer like FTL, it might likely stay that way for centuries.

Quote
So many people don't realize that this Earth is all we have, and all we're ever going to have.
Eh, I wouldn't quite say that.  Ever is a pretty long time.  But even if - and this is only an if - mankind does spread out along the lines of my rosiest hopes, they will be extremely dependent on the Earth for almost everything for a long, long, time.  Terra is definitely a system we can't afford to lose.

Quote
While too many other people think God will save us - or "the aliens" will save us - from the consequences of our own bad behavior.  And science itself may not be able to save us, either.
Yes, that is a very dangerous mindset to have.  Science will never be able to lengthen the rope we use to hang ourselves to the extent that it's harmless.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on November 26, 2019, 07:39:25 PM
Yeah, it was a bleak series of paths, kinda a ruthless blade taken to any hopes of egalitarianism. But, I still cherish the notion that humanity is not condemned to progress. That a technology can be possible, yet rejected.

Japan under the Shogans.  Also a scifi series were only medieval weapons were allowed, but psy powers that came from human alien cross breading dominated.

Bioweapons and human gene modification.  That is something more than nukes.  It is already happening.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 27, 2019, 05:28:24 AM
"Cross breading"...
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on November 27, 2019, 06:42:27 PM
"Cross breading"...

Yes, Dr Moreau uses a bread maker, to make his human-animal hybrids.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 27, 2019, 06:43:31 PM
(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1458870122i/18542067._SX540_.jpg)
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gregory on March 02, 2020, 08:14:29 PM
You know, Sci-fi is nothing but the reflection of the up-to-date scientific facts on the likely possible future world.
In sci-fi, it is presented the possibility mirrors. From the cosmos models that the science suggests, to the new life-styles that the technology can promotes...

Back in the old days, I didn't use to like watching sci-fi films, but nowadays i like it... my approach to sci-fi has changed.

Whatever, i just wonder when the ''galactic empire'' or ''galactic federation'' can be established. We the humanity are bound to sail through the space... Just like once upon a time our ancestors spreaded to the world from the continent Africa. Spreading and discovering is our destiny to survive... We cannot be confined to the planet earth....

Unfortunately, we are confined to earth.  Space is too vast.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SvZurich on March 02, 2020, 11:25:10 PM
...I am thinking of my favorite classic sci-fi book, Dune.

Dune's 6 books (ignore the ones by Frank's little boy) are my favorite "religious book" to offer people who start preaching the Buy-Bull/Koran/etc.  You have amazing Muslims working with a moral savior to overthrow tyranny and establish a path to reject tyranny forever.  Hope!

No hell, the God Emperor showed us a taste of what a hell is for a few thousand years in order to teach humanity to reject that.  I love it!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: aitm on March 03, 2020, 11:01:40 AM
Dune's 6 books (ignore the ones by Frank's little boy) are my favorite "religious book" to offer people who start preaching the Buy-Bull/Koran/etc.  You have amazing Muslims working with a moral savior to overthrow tyranny and establish a path to reject tyranny forever.  Hope!

No hell, the God Emperor showed us a taste of what a hell is for a few thousand years in order to teach humanity to reject that.  I love it!
Kimmy! How the hell are you?
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SvZurich on March 03, 2020, 02:17:30 PM
Hi AITM!  I'm well.  Unemployed, but my ex-girlfriend lets me live here free (after I put too damn much money into this house when I could afford to) and a former coworker kicks me some money in the hopes I will return to the job when the season starts up again.

That leads to me returning here to cause mayhem, sometimes be clever, and to be annoying at will!  I win!

How've you been, darlin'?
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: aitm on March 03, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
I really hate to say how well it is going right now for fear of some crazy ass karma shit that i don't believe in taking aim at me for being arrogant. But .....all is great!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SvZurich on March 03, 2020, 02:59:23 PM
Huzzah!  You win!  Loki be praised!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2020, 07:57:39 PM
Unfortunately, we are confined to earth.  Space is too vast.

That saves the rest of the galaxy from poo throwing monkey men.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on March 04, 2020, 10:56:58 AM
Maybe...at our present rate we are more likely to simply die here while a ill-prepared little ship sets off with a dozen or so hopefuls to some planet suspected of being rather hospitable

A strange visitor from another planet, upholding truth, justice, and the Marklar way.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 04, 2020, 05:22:30 PM
Maybe...at our present rate we are more likely to simply die here while a ill-prepared little ship sets off with a dozen or so hopefuls to some planet suspected of being rather hospitable.....only to die enroute.


alas....poor Yorick....we knew him well...

I was thinking more like ... "Slept overnight in a Holiday Inn Space Express" ... out of this world, and I woke up a genius! ;-)
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: trdsf on March 05, 2020, 12:44:59 AM
Unfortunately, we are confined to earth.  Space is too vast.
Not over the long term.  Unfortunately, nowadays "long term thinking" means planning for lunch when it's already 10:30 in the morning.

I recommend Isaac Arthur's futurism videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZFipeZtQM5CKUjx6grh54g).  I think he's overoptimistic about what's possible even over millions of years, but there's nothing fundamentally unsound in it.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 05, 2020, 05:15:26 AM
John Varley's "Red Thunder" series is a fun read. The Dr. Sumguy in that series simply created a space drive. Varley, as always, makes the twists seem plausible.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 09:38:32 AM
The Disney movie "The Black Hole" was and still is a failure.  "Interstellar" is another version of this "Deus ex machina".  I am still waiting for Captain Nemo to free the world from tyranny.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SvZurich on March 05, 2020, 11:36:57 AM
The Disney movie "The Black Hole" was and still is a failure.

But, but, it has VINCENT and Old BOB and MAXIMILIAN!  The film was inspirational!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Sal1981 on March 05, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
I kinda liked Disney's Black Hole movie. I remember it as being dark and sinister, particularly Maximilian.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 12:33:02 PM
I kinda liked Disney's Black Hole movie. I remember it as being dark and sinister, particularly Maximilian.

Corporate Disney ... The Mouse ... is real and sinister.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on March 05, 2020, 01:56:02 PM
and I woke up a genius! ;-)

Then you must have been dreaming!  :-P
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 01:57:26 PM
Then you must have been dreaming!  :-P

My credit card receipt from the motel says different.  I even used the old quarter operated bed vibrator ;-)
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 08:13:27 PM
My credit card receipt from the motel says different.  I even used the old quarter operated bed vibrator ;-)

There is no such thing as genius, only talent.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Unbeliever on March 05, 2020, 08:26:42 PM
My credit card receipt from the motel says different.  I even used the old quarter operated bed vibrator ;-)

They still have those? Do they still only cost a quarter?
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 08:51:46 PM
There is no such thing as genius, only talent.

No exact agreement on talent.  Post-facto reasoning.  Some people are so damn talented (Mozart for example) that they make regular talented people (I am not even talented by the way) look ordinary.  Some kind of Aspergers.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 09:13:30 PM
No exact agreement on talent.  Post-facto reasoning.  Some people are so damn talented (Mozart for example) that they make regular talented people (I am not even talented by the way) look ordinary.  Some kind of Aspergers.

Not all talent is mad but it helps.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
Not all talent is mad but it helps.

If one's only talent, is getting mad, one needs counseling ;-)
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 09:22:38 PM
If one's only talent, is getting mad, one needs counseling ;-)

"Anger is an energy," yet
Also the enemy.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 09:25:54 PM
"Anger is an energy," yet
Also the enemy.

This is why a two-edged razor isn't safe.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Hydra009 on March 05, 2020, 09:40:16 PM
"Anger is an energy," yet
Also the enemy.
Not an enemy.  Just a blade requiring a hilt.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on August 04, 2020, 08:32:08 PM
"The Pentagon's New UFO Disclosures: 75 Years Of MK Ultra Psy Ops" ... same as Project Blue Book
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2020, 08:42:31 AM
"Connected-Car Cyber-Attacks Have Skyrocketed, Up 99% In The Past Year" ... people laughed when someone took control of that Toyota remotely on that California highway a few years ago

"Your Phone Is Spying On You: Companies Are Generating Secret "Surveillance Scores" Based On That Data" ... all of society, with smartphones, are just like that apocryphal woman who died in the car wreck while texting, her severed arm still holding her cell phone.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 11, 2020, 10:10:35 PM
I actually liked Disney's "The Black Hole".

Come on, can you name another live action Disney movie that shows a scene in Hell?
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: SvZurich on August 11, 2020, 10:13:42 PM
Plus the Black Hole had VINCENT and Old BOB and MAXIMILLIAN!  I loved those robots!
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2020, 11:10:10 PM
I actually liked Disney's "The Black Hole".

Come on, can you name another live action Disney movie that shows a scene in Hell?

Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure followed by Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey ... where Bob and Ted prank Death.  But not Disney, that evil would have been too realistic ;-)

Now they are doing a three-quel, with Bob and Ted as parents with precocious children ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE59OY4KGJg
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 12, 2020, 07:22:44 AM
Plus the Black Hole had VINCENT and Old BOB and MAXIMILLIAN!  I loved those robots!

Now that Disney owns Star Wars, we can have Vincent meet R2D2.
Title: Re: Science Fiction.
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2020, 01:07:14 PM
Now that Disney owns Star Wars, we can have Vincent meet R2D2.

Cross-over movies are driven by the vast number of trans-sexuals who go see them.