Have you guys seen the newest robots?

Started by Cocoa Beware, April 26, 2016, 12:08:23 AM

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trdsf

Quote from: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 08:07:24 AM
I've always thought it was a hard decision.  And they didn't quite realize then what they were unleashing.  But even had they understood, would the decision have been different.  Could it have been?
I don't know.  There's a body of opinion that the US might have demonstrated the weapon and then said "Okay, now, the next one will go off somewhere in Japan.  Or, you could surrender."  Hindsight is insufficiently 20/20 to say whether that might have worked.  It might have, and it equally well might not have.  Personally, I think that would have been a better route to take: Japan would have at least had the opportunity to say "Whoa, no, we're not messing with that".

The standard counter-argument to that is "But what if the demonstration was a dud?" but this is of no relevance.  You can just as easily ask what if Trinity had been a dud, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki?  Any one of them could have failed; this was a new device.

In either case, we can't judge what Japan might or might not have done in the wake of a successful (or unsuccessful) demonstration.  I think the most that we can say from the vantage point of history is that the follow-up bombing of Nagasaki was probably too soon.  The Imperial Japanese government hadn't fully absorbed what had happened in Hiroshima, nor formulated a response.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Baruch

Not even Einstein was a humanitarian in WW II ... but like most Jews, he only had it in for Germany.  Pacifists like Gandhi, had Japan had more success invading India, would have been shot.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rushed ... because Stalin.  But then Leftist would have liked a nuclear armed communist N Japan.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 12:59:20 PM
But then Leftist would have liked a nuclear armed communist N Japan.
How about we speak only for ourselves instead of for other people? I doubt that the anime scene would be nearly as rich with a communist N Japan, after all.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Hakurei Reimu

Yay! Robot abominations beating the electrons out of each other!
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

SGOS

That one was down right humiliating.  I'd hate to be the loser of that match standing in front of the crowd.  Of course I didn't seen any of the sparing that may have taken place early on.  I always wonder about the fire breathing robots though.  Yeah, it's fire and all, but it seems like spitting at a guy with a sword wearing  chain mail.  Then he whacks you in the head with his sword, and you're like, "WHAT?  You know I got fire, right?"  Then <Whack!  Whack!> but by then it's to late to consider another strategy.

Draconic Aiur


Unbeliever

That one seem not quite ready for prime time.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on February 07, 2018, 06:50:20 PM
Kill it with fire
Or maybe take off and nuke it from orbit - it's the only way to be sure!
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

SGOS


Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: trdsf on February 07, 2018, 12:46:47 PM
I don't know.  There's a body of opinion that the US might have demonstrated the weapon and then said "Okay, now, the next one will go off somewhere in Japan.  Or, you could surrender."  Hindsight is insufficiently 20/20 to say whether that might have worked.  It might have, and it equally well might not have.  Personally, I think that would have been a better route to take: Japan would have at least had the opportunity to say "Whoa, no, we're not messing with that".

The standard counter-argument to that is "But what if the demonstration was a dud?" but this is of no relevance.  You can just as easily ask what if Trinity had been a dud, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki?  Any one of them could have failed; this was a new device.

In either case, we can't judge what Japan might or might not have done in the wake of a successful (or unsuccessful) demonstration.  I think the most that we can say from the vantage point of history is that the follow-up bombing of Nagasaki was probably too soon.  The Imperial Japanese government hadn't fully absorbed what had happened in Hiroshima, nor formulated a response.

For some reason, I thought the US tried that.  I checked, and found it was a suggestion, not an invitation.  That is sad.

But the Japanese did see the results of the 1st one and still resisted surrender.  And some elements of the Japanese Govt resisted surrender even after the 2nd.  That suggests a demonstration might not have had much practical effect.

The US-Japanese part of WWII was bitter and brutal.  It should be a lesson to all.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

#102
Quote from: Cavebear on February 09, 2018, 05:05:36 AM
For some reason, I thought the US tried that.  I checked, and found it was a suggestion, not an invitation.  That is sad.

But the Japanese did see the results of the 1st one and still resisted surrender.  And some elements of the Japanese Govt resisted surrender even after the 2nd.  That suggests a demonstration might not have had much practical effect.

The US-Japanese part of WWII was bitter and brutal.  It should be a lesson to all.

Correct.  Anti-nuke people are anti- no matter what.  The US and Japan weren't nice to each other.  Japan would have done more to hurt the US if it could back then.  Maybe in the future.  After all, they were only avenging the insult to the shogun made by Commodore Perry.  Originally, in Aug 45, the Japanese planned to explode a radiological weapon (radioisotope pollution) over San Francisco.  Had they done so, San Francisco would still be uninhabitable.  Fortunately the super-sub carrying the radioisotopes from Germany to Japan was sunk in the Atlantic earlier in 1945.  And the Japanese did have nuclear weapon research, they had a partial nuclear reactor in Korea, as the Germans did in S Germany.  Both reactors could have been used more easily to generate radioisotopes than to build a bomb.

Strange, but had nukes not be available, having to bayonet every Japanese civilian to exterminate them ... would have been worse for everyone involved.  And it would have come down to that, given Japanese culture.  People forget how amazing it was that Germany surrendered at all.  Yes, they waited too long, but ... farfegnugen.  The Italians were the smartest, surrendered as soon as they could.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

trdsf

Quote from: Cavebear on February 09, 2018, 05:05:36 AM
For some reason, I thought the US tried that.  I checked, and found it was a suggestion, not an invitation.  That is sad.

But the Japanese did see the results of the 1st one and still resisted surrender.  And some elements of the Japanese Govt resisted surrender even after the 2nd.  That suggests a demonstration might not have had much practical effect.

The US-Japanese part of WWII was bitter and brutal.  It should be a lesson to all.
Personally, I suspect the decision to hit Nagasaki on the 9th was driven at least as much by trying to force a surrender before Soviet boots hit the ground in the northern islands, than it was to force a surrender for the sake of ending the war.  The Soviet declaration of war wasn't quite twelve hours old when the bomb was dropped, and in that time they had already launched attacks on Japanese-held Manchuria.  And the attack on the Kuril Islands came five days after the Japanese announced their surrender, which makes it difficult to regard it as anything other than a naked land grab.

But, Monday morning quarterbacking.  And I admittedly have no military background.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Baruch

Uncle Joe was a big factor, anywhere he wanted to be ... an 800 lb bear not gorilla.  GB was part of this too, and Churchill would have skinned Stalin alive if he could have.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.