Author Topic: Rebuttal to image 'atheist atrocity'? Maybe start a trend with an opposing image  (Read 1522 times)

Offline DavidOller (OP)

Hi,
I have seen this image (linked below) pop up on a few occasions, at first I see a few 'atrocities' were not even atheistic at all and coincidentally some religious. What I would like maybe 1 or 2 sentences explain why they have nothing to do with atheism and more to do with politics or power or just some insane leader. But please if one of these have any atheistic motive behind it, I would like to know.. as I believe to stay truthful about things, you cannot go wrong. I have seen many essays refuting this stupid fallacy, name 'The Atheist Atrocity Fallacy', and you can use those has a basis for information or well any history book. I will give a few links sources at the end to go by :) I mean I have looked everywhere for a picture of sorts on google images but nothing really to go against this picture, there are a few with but nothing of worth. A collaboration with you guys will be extremely appreciative.

I don't mean these were done with people with no belief in a god (I could argue some of these leaders did and/or believed they were god and carried out and defended a religious worldview), rather were they done in the name of NO god. Of which I do not think so.
Was it there motive? Personally atheism is just a lack of believe of a deity and carry with it NO strong motive, i'e doctrine, worldview, book telling what to do, god telling them what to do.
My opinion would be this: While they may or may not have been atheists (most of them not), they did NOT commit their crimes in the name of "no god", they did not kill millions of people because "no god" ordered them to, they did not commit ethnic cleansing in honor of "no god". Their motive was totally different.


This little write-up below accompanied the image:

Quote
Atheism and Mass Murder in 20th century:
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
Adolf Hitler (Germany 1939-1945) 12,000,000 people murdered
***********************************

Also I would like to mention but I'd say everyone know that Communism does NOT equate to atheism. I don't even know how this came about:
Communism is a political ideology, atheism is not political. Its simply the disbelief in gods or goddesses. There was much more than just persecution of religious people in communist-ran countries like Russia and China. Anyone that didn't follow them or protested them that got caught were often plucked from the streets to be tortured or executed, no matter what they believed. The motives for these were political, not based off the personal beliefs of the leaders. Just like there can be a water in a orange, does not in any way mean that water has a special connection to oranges. It doesn't mean that an atheist has to share *anything* with communism apart from a "lack of belief in a god or gods".

So I could say to many of these atrocities something like "Not atheist but Communist/political"
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Quote
For example the North Korea one, everyone worshiped Kim Jong-Il and he himself believed he was the son of god or rather a mini god himself and his father a god.. The whole servility and totalitarianism by the people of North Korea is a religious regime, and believed he was god, as the first known totalitarianism in the world was a religious one.

In a place (North Korea) with absolutely no private or personal life, with the incessant worship of a mediocre career-sadist as the only culture, where all citizens are the permanent property of the state, the highest form of pointlessness has been achieved.
The whole "GOD" thing is similar to the situation in North Korea. North Koreans have been taught since childhood that the "Dear Leader" is indeed a God, so they actually believe it because they know nothing else since childhood. As children, we were drilled and instructed NOT to challenge religion, but to accept 'on faith" or be damned to hellfire and damnation. I don't wish to live under a permanent unalterable dictatorship where one grovels and praises the divine leader and his divine father sounds almost like heaven, does it not. Totalitarianism defined.

Religious belief is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea.

Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? North Korea has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung.

It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved.
- Christopher Hitchens
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So taking whats above as a guide, the summary would be: I would say "North Korea was a religious state that had Kim Jong-Il as a god and he himself believed he was the son of god and his father Kim Il-Sung was a god.. The son is the reincarnation of the father."
*********************************
and Hitler & Mussolini:
"Hitler was a Catholic, so was Mussolini. Both of them had an official political concordat with the Catholic churches. Both of them wanted the worship of themselves as well as of God. And their third main ally, Hirohito, the Emperor of Japan, not content just to be theocratic, was himself a god. So anyone who says that fascism and Nazism were secular is an ignoramus...on a gigantic scale." - Christopher Hitchens
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Stalin:
The dogmatic ideology and obsessive nature and stigma around him, thats almost a religious regime in itself. This regime became a more nationalist and statist one, to maintain at least a puppet church that could attach its traditional appeal to his.
He did everything for power and not for his hatred of religion, if he had any. In fact he played into the incredulity and servility of Czar & Roman Orthodox Church. In which never left the side of Stalin during his reign of power. It shows he used the totalitarian, servility and credulity of religion for power and crush opposition. He replicates it perfectly. - Christopher Hitchens
*********************************

If/when I have enough information, I will and try to create a few opposing pictures
1) The rebuttal to this (i.e - Mark out with red marker saying "Incorrect" and give a brief explanation why.)
2) 20thC atrocities - and give the years, deaths and description of what type of regime (political, power, religious etc.) it is (preferably using the picture shown here as a direct guide).
3) Since they can do it, so can we. We will make a "Religious 20th Century Atrocities" statistical image.
This site is an amazing place to start:
 http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

What do you guys think? If you guys think you know how to handle photoshop, please go ahead and create a master piece :)
I appreciate any co-operation and feedback. Hopefully later on after people can upload an image on a blog and therefore will be on google images :)
- Cheers :)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 10:50:36 PM by DavidOller »

Well, we can say that religion has killed very many more than atheism ever thought of:


http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
God Not Found
"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli

Offline TomFoolery

I love it when people point to Josef Stalin as an atheist murderer. Yes, he was an atheist and killed a lot of people, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's not like he was "murdering" just Christians or just Muslims in the name of atheism.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Offline DavidOller (OP)

Update:
The next part is pretty long but not necessary to read but I like to be as thorough as possible. The next few paragraphs were taking mostly from what Christopher Hitchens said and other people with a few coming from 'Atheist Atrocity Fallacy' pages on the internet. I hope this will come in handy for creating these images :)

Quote
Firstly, Hitler was a Christian, the church stood by him through all of his career, his regime was based on the Christians doctrines, he wanted to create a Neo-Nazi Christian regime as him as the son of god. He wanted people to worship god and himself making him a minor god.

Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao etc.. all trotted out to defend a religious worldview using religious doctrines and sided with the church.
************
Part 1:
Fascism, the original 20th-century totalitarian movement, is really, historically, another name for the political activity of the Catholic right wing.

People, radicle extreme preachers, often assert a rather false pis aller question:
“Well what about atheist nihilism, what about atheist cruelty, what about 20th-century totalitarianism?” I take this seriously and I can only summarize it now and I will do it so very tersely as I can. First, Fascism, the original 20th-century totalitarian movement, is really, historically, another name for the political activity of the Catholic right wing. There is no other name for it—Francoism, Salazarism, what happened in Croatia, in Austria, in Barbaria and so on—the church keeps on trying to apologize for it, can't apologize for it enough, it's the Catholic right, Mussolini.

You can't quite say that about Hitler, National Socialism, because that's also based on Nordic and Pagan blood myths, leader worship and so on, though Hitler never repudiated his membership of the church and prayers were said for him on his birthday every year until the very end on the orders of the Vatican. And all of these facts are well known and the church still hasn't found any way to apologize for that enough. And whatever it is, you can call that, you can't call it secular. You may not call it secular. By the way, Joseph Goebles was ex-communicated from the Catholic Church. 50 percent, according to Paul Johnson the Catholic historian, of the Waffen SS were confessing Catholics, none of them was ever threatened with ex-communication, even threatened for it—with it for taking part in the final solution. But Joseph Goebles was ex-communicated for— marrying a Protestant. You see, we do have our standards.

To imply not only Hitler was an atheist but that he did so because he was one.. is horrendously idiotic. To say he specifically hated religious people is a lie. He hated EVERYONE who had power. In fact he DISPISED atheists too by announcing his opposition to atheism on multiple occasions, declaring his intention to “stamp out” atheism, and presiding over the distribution of Bibles urging their readers to believe in God “wholeheartedly”.

Regardless of what Hitler really believed, he was emphatically not an atheist: he said so himself numerous times, and in fact firmly declared his opposition to atheism. Here is a quote uttered by Hitler in April 1933:

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith…

And from a speech given in October of that year:
We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

Though Hitler never repudiated his membership of the church and prayers were said for him on his birthday every year until the very end on the orders of the Vatican. And all of these facts are well known and the church still hasn't found any way to apologize for that enough. And whatever it is, you can call that, you can't call it secular. You may not call it secular. Hitler says that he’s doing God’s work and executing God’s will in destroying the Jewish people? How come the fuhrer oath that every officer of the Party and the Army had to take, making Hitler into a minor god, begins, “I swear in the name of almighty God, my loyalty to the Fuhrer?” How come that on the belt buckle of every Nazi soldier it says Gott mit uns, God on our side? How come that the first treaty made by the Nationalist Socialist dictatorship, the very first is with the Vatican? It’s exchanging political control of Germany for Catholic control of German education. How come that the church has celebrated the birthday of the Fuhrer every year, on that day until democracy put an end to this filthy, quasi-religious, superstitious, barbarous, reactionary system?

Hitler hated atheist as much as religious. Ur saying if 1 kills religious people has 2 be an atheist. Not true. He can be a person from another rival religion, physcopath or control freak. All of which Hitler was. He hated atheists as much as religious people. It proves he was a psychopath and killed for power.

To begin, here are just a few of Hitler’s Christian confessions:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” [3]

“The greatness of Christianity did not arise from attempts to make compromises with those philosophical opinions of the ancient world which had some resemblance to its own doctrine, but in the unrelenting and fanatical proclamation and defense of its own teaching.” [4]

However, an article released by the United Press, Hitler bested God by 2 commandments, should be the final nail in the coffin of this spurious claim. This brief article concerns the discovery of an extant copy of “Germans with God”, a version of the Bible written by the Third Reich and distributed to German churches in 1941. The Nazi version contains two additional commandments to add to the standard ten, neither of which should be very surprising: “Honor your Fuhrer and master” and “Keep the blood pure and your honor holy”. Here is its rendition of the original Decalogue:

• Honor God and believe in him wholeheartedly,
• Seek out the peace of God,
• Avoid all hypocrisy,
• Holy is your health and life,
• Holy is your well-being and honor,
• Holy is your truth and fidelity,
• Honor your father and mother — your children are your aid and your example,
• Maintain and multiply the heritage of your forefathers,
• Be ready to help and forgive,
• Joyously serve the people with work and sacrifice.

Nazi comparisons might want to take a closer look at that first one: “Honor God and believe in him wholeheartedly“. Again, this is a Bible that the Nazi regime, and this almost certainly means Hitler himself, wrote, edited and approved of.

Adolf Hitler continued announcing his opposition to atheism on multiple occasions, despite declaring his intention to “stamp out” atheism, and despite presiding over the distribution of Bibles urging their readers to believe in God “wholeheartedly”.

By these it suggests that when Hitler wanted to overthrow Christianity and other religions (and atheists too, I might add), he himself made him a minor god and as seen above has all the characteristics of a new Neo-Nazi Religious Regime using Christianity's doctrines to do so.

Conclusion:
Hitler was a Catholic, so was Mussolini. Both of them had an official political concordat with the Catholic churches. Both of them wanted the worship of themselves as well as of God. And their third main ally, Hirohito, the Emperor of Japan, not content just to be theocratic, was himself a god. So anyone who says that fascism and Nazism were secular is an ignoramus...on a gigantic scale.

Fascists on the other hand (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler and various South American dictators) were strongly Catholic, – some with a few additional right-wing Protestant affiliations. There have been many good books by Karlheinz Deschner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Deschner) although few have been translated into English. However, this one, God and the Fascists: The Vatican Alliance with Mussolini, Franco, Hitler, and Pavelic, should be available soon. It is already on Amazon for pre-order.
************

Part 2 -
Stalin played into the incredulity & servility of Czar & Roman Orthodox Church. An atheists, yes, the only atheist but the things he did was not because of his lack of belief in a god.. hence nothing to do with atheism.

Moving to Marxism, moving to Leninism. In Russia in 1917, for hundreds of years millions of people have been told the head of the State is a supernatural power. The Czar is not just the head of the Government, not just a king, but he stands between heaven and earth. And this has been inculcated in generations of Russians for hundreds of years. If you're Joseph Stalin, himself a seminarian from Georgia, you shouldn't be in the totalitarianism business if you can't exploit a ready-made reservoir of credulity and servility that's as big as that. It's just waiting for you to capitalize on. So what do you do? Well we'll have an Inquisition, for one thing; we'll have miracles, for another, Lysenko's biology will produce four harvests a year; we'll have harvestry hunts; we'll tell everyone they must be grateful only to the leader for what they get and they must thank him and praise him all the time and that they must be aware all the time of the existence of the counter-revolutionary devil who waits to—you see where I'm going with this. ¬ Its surrogate, it is and the very best and the very worst, the examples I've been talking about, are a surrogate for Messiahnism for the belief in ultimate history and the end of days and the conclusion of all things which is, I've tried to argue, I hope with some success, the problem to begin with. The replacement of reason by faith, the discarding of the one thing that makes us important and useful and different from other primates in favor of something that requires no evidence and just requires incantation. Not good for you.

If anyone else could come up with an example of a society which had fallen into slavery and bankruptcy and beggary and terror and misery because it had adopted the teachings and the precepts of Spinoza and Einstein and Pierre Bayle and Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, then I'd be impressed and that would be a fair test on a level playing field, but you will find no such example.

Indeed, the nearest such example that we do have is the great United States, the first country in the world to have a Constitution that forbids the mention of religion in the public square, except by way of limiting it and saying that the State can take no interest in establishment of faith. Yes, here is something about us as a species that is problematic; it isn't just explained by religion. Something about us that tempts us to do wrong. It's pretty easily explained, I think. We are primates, high primates, but primates. We're half a chromosome away from chimpanzees and it shows. It especially shows in the number of religions we invent to console ourselves or to give us things to quarrel with other primates about. If anything demonstrates that God is manmade, not man God made, surely it is the religions erected by this quasi-chimpanzee species and the harm that they're willing to inflict on that basis.

Every good or bad thing done because of power and when one says he targeted the church, he targeted them for position of power not anything to do with religion. The church had power.. he wanted it.

He did everything for power and not for his hatred of religion, if he had any. In fact he played into the incredulity and servility of Czar & Roman Orthodox Church. In which never left the side of Stalin during his reign of power. It shows he used the totalitarian, servility and credulity of religion for power and crush opposition. He replicates it perfectly. There's an inquisition; there are show trials to expose heretics; there are miracle (Lysenko's biology); there's the constant worship of the leader. Everything comes from the top; everyone has to say thank you all the time for the great benefits. It's a replication of the same thing.

So in conclusion. the dogmatic ideology and obsessive nature and stigma around him, thats almost a religious regime in itself. This regime became a more nationalist and statist one, to maintain at least a puppet church that could attach its traditional appeal to his.

There are no guarantees that an atheist can be a nihilist, or a sadist, or a Stalinist, or a fascist—actually it’d be unlikely the last one but that’s possible. Okay, but there are NO guarantees and in part that it’s the RECOGNITION of that, that’s the beginning of wisdom as well as I think the beginning of liberty.

Now if one wants to be on a level playing field and one keeps saying Stalin did this in the name of atheism than, point out to me a society that went into famine and dictatorship and mass murder and war and torture as a result of adopting the principals of Lucretius and Spinoza and Einstein and Jefferson and Thomas Paine, then we'd have a level playing field. Thank you.

Again, this is not a difference of emphasis between us. To suggest that there’s something fascistic about me and about my beliefs is something I won't hear said and you shouldn't believe.
************

Part 3 -
POL POT - wasn’t the result of a lack of belief in a god, but in the megalomaniacal belief that heaven or destiny was guiding him to improve the state of affairs. Pol Pot & Mao: raised Buddhist. All called 4 blind faith & obedience.

Pol Pot, possibly not even an atheist, but almost certainly a Buddhist, believed in the teachings of the Buddha, no matter how perverted his interpretations may or may not have been. His violence, much like the violence of many earlier religionists, wasn’t the result of a lack of belief in a god, whether Zeus, Osiris, Yahweh, or the god-like Buddha of Mahayana Buddhism, but in the megalomaniacal belief that heaven or destiny was guiding him to improve the state of affairs for all those who could be forced to share his misguided utopian delusions. Not only was Pol Pot a Theravada Buddhist, but the soil in which his atrocities were sewn was also very Buddhist.

In Alexander Laban Hinton’s book, ‘Why Did They Kill?: Cambodia in the Shadow of Genocide,’ Hinton drew attention to the role that the belief in karma played in Pol Pot’s Cambodia, particularly with regards to the cementation of a docilely accepted social hierarchy, not too dissimilar from Stalin’s ready-made Russian religious tyranny, as well as highlighting the Buddhist origins of Pol Pot’s ideological initiatives.

Hinton remarks:

This [Pol Pot’s regime’s] line of thinking about revolutionary consciousness directly parallels Buddhist thought, with the “Party line” and “collective stand” being substituted for dhamma…One could certainly push this argument further , contending that the Khmer Rouge attempted to assume the monk’s traditional role as moral instructor (teaching their new brand of “mindfulness”) and that DK regime’s glorification of asceticism, detachment, the elimination of attachment and desire, renunciation (of material goods and personal behaviors, sentiments, and attitudes), and purity paralleled prominent Buddhist themes… [30]

I have only presented a small snippet of the available evidence that points to religion’s role in Pol Pot’s crimes, and there is not one single piece of solid evidence that Pol Pot was an atheist, so let us once and for all dispense with that speculative piece of religious propaganda. Pol Pot spent close to a decade at Catholic school and nearly as long studying at a Buddhist institution, so religious education was something he had in common with both Hitler and Stalin, but I would never use such data-mined facts to assert that religious education invariably inspires tyrants to commit atrocities, although a case for such a proposition could probably be made without committing too many logical and historical inaccuracies. I won’t even bother sharing the un-sourced quote from Prince Norodom Sihanouk that Christians present as “proof” that Pol Pot was an atheist, as its origin is not only dubious, but its contents reflect a belief in heaven, which, if genuine, negates any claim that Pol Pot was an atheist.
*********************

- Christopher Hitchens

Offline DavidOller (OP)

In conclusion:
One (Stalin) was an atheist, two were Buddhist (Mao and Pol) that could have been atheists but believed in the supernatural dimension and a higher level of existence, many were religious (Hitler, Mussolini &  Kim Jun ill) and some of them believed they were god and their regime was most definitely a totalitarian, tyrannical religious (Hitler, Stalin and Kim Jun ill). For the ones that were or might be atheist, It was not their lack of belief in a god which drove them and motivated them, it was political, racial and nationalistic reasons and defended a religious worldview using religious doctrines to do so.
It should also be noted that, over the course of human history, religion and the internecine battles between competing religions have caused a great deal of war, bloodshed, repression and strife, and there is insufficient historical data to fully calculate the death tolls from the Crusades, the Witch Trials, the European wars of religion, the European and Russian pogroms, the Mideast conflict, the Islamic Jihad, the Indo-Pakistani War, etc, etc.

Quote
But this should not come down to a head count. The overarching point is that many wars have been explicitly fought in the name of religion, while none have been explicitly fought in the name of atheism. In addition, many religious leaders have contributed to secular wars and terrorism by endorsing or supporting the violence, and, conversely, religious fervour is often exploited by secular leaders to support war and terrorism.

Perhaps a better question is why an all-seeing, all-loving God would allow such travesties of justice to take place at all, whether perpetrated by religious or atheist leaders, a matter which is further discussed in the section on the Problem of Evil. Anyways I would argue that religion has cause more atrocities as well as mental atrocities (like mind forging of children with bigotry or suicides/awful childhoods of homosexuals and the physiological trauma of innocent children being raped by priests - of which I didn't get into) in the world. Also the horrific periods of history before 19th/20th centuries, of all the stoning people to death because of homosexuality, unbelief, adultery, sodomy, treating women as equal to that of cattle, ritualistic ceremonies/sacrifice... I could write about these but I believe you get my point. It is interesting to find that people of faith now seek defensively to say that they are no worse than fascists or Nazis or Stalinists and I hope that is not where you were going with this.
- Christopher Hitchens

That was just some extra information.. once again to the attached image above, I would be grateful to any help/information provided, Thanks :)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 07:12:58 PM by DavidOller »

Offline DavidOller (OP)

Well, we can say that religion has killed very many more than atheism ever thought of:


http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

Cheers man: This will come in handy in creating a rival image of 'Religious atrocities' rather more accurate "Christianity's Atrocities". Much appreciated :)

Offline Baruch

Dictators don't like any source of power that they haven't compromised.  This is how Constantine created Roman Catholicism.  But with Stalin, it was just easier to exterminate the Church rather than corrupt it (Czars).  Religion is a great power in all societies ... so it is always on the dictator's radar.
שלום

I love it when people point to Josef Stalin as an atheist murderer. Yes, he was an atheist and killed a lot of people, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's not like he was "murdering" just Christians or just Muslims in the name of atheism.

I love when people conveniently forget where Stalin get his education. Also I wouldn't call him unbeliever considering that marxism-leninism was just another religion*.

*More about this can be found in Rafał Imos Faith of the Soviet Man. The Soviet's Institutionalized Myth, though it is only in Polish as far as I'm aware. If I recall correctly also Raymond Aron write on this subject in The Opium of the Intellectuals.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

George Santayana.

"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth".

Mikhail Bakunin.

Offline Baruch

Stalin and Dershinski (founder of Cheka) were both seminary students.
שלום

Dictators don't like any source of power that they haven't compromised.  This is how Constantine created Roman Catholicism.  But with Stalin, it was just easier to exterminate the Church rather than corrupt it (Czars).  Religion is a great power in all societies ... so it is always on the dictator's radar.


Yeah, as Aristotle pointed out,
Quote
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.
God Not Found
"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli

If we want to go with kill tallies, God wins! The Great Flood killed most life on Earth.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Well, considering that God created a universe (or at least this world) such that everything dies, he's the ultimate murderer!
God Not Found
"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli

Well, considering that God created a universe (or at least this world) such that everything dies, he's the ultimate murderer!

LOL!  You just moved up the Dog's (Giant Omnipotent Dog) death list for that..............................I'll be avoiding you for a while; wouldn't do to be in the room with you when the 'nade sails in through the window!   :)

Offline Cavebear

Atheism does not equate to morality, kindness, wisdom, or practical sense.  Too many people assign ethical values for or against it.  Those values do not apply.

Atheism doesn't mean anything other than a lack of belief in religions or deities. 

I have met atheists nuttier than fruitcakes, crazy mad conservative, moonbeam communists, and everything in between.  People I wouldn't trust with a burnt match.  People who couldn't walk a straight line sober. 

And I've met some far more rational than myself, thoughtful, caring, sensible and wise.  Some who would give you their last dime.  Or a coat. 

Atheism isn't whether you are good or bad.  It's just what you think about existence. 

Hitler was religious and I hate him.  Stalin was atheist and I hate him too.  Atheism never made anyone smart or wise, or cruel and indifferent. 

But, on the whole, I'd rather be around atheists.  One less stupidity to fight against...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Germans were 97% religious in the 20th C. Christians did the Holocaust.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers