Author Topic: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?  (Read 3219 times)

Offline pr126

Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« on: April 14, 2016, 12:10:10 AM »
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Online Munch

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2016, 08:04:46 AM »
Christianity hasn't been reformed either really. Its just that people look to whats in the bible and its stories and bullshit more now, and just make up their own way of believing in god

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2016, 09:14:22 AM »
I don't really care if it does anymore than I care that the pious pricks around here will just wake up one day and realize it's just one big fucking joke.. They won't and I'm not wasting my time on trying to convince them..
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline pr126

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2016, 01:04:06 AM »
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Quote
Every few years the debate over reforming Islam bubbles up from the depths of a culture that largely censors any suggestion that Islam needs reforming.

But Islam does not exist apart from Muslims. It is not an abstract entity that can be changed without changing its followers. And if Islam has not changed, that is because Muslims do not want it to.

Mohammed and key figures in Islam provided a template, but that template would not endure if it did not fit the worldview of its worshipers. Western religions underwent a process of secularization to align with what many saw as modernity leading to a split between traditionalists and secularists.

The proponents of modernizing Islam assume that it didn’t make the jump because of Saudi money, fundamentalist violence and regional backwardness. These allegations are true, but also incomplete.

If modernizing Islam really appealed to Muslims, it would have taken off, at least in the West, despite Saudi money and Muslim Brotherhood front groups. These elements might have slowed things down, but a political or religious idea that is genuinely compelling is like a rock rolling down a hill.

It’s enormously difficult to stop.

Muslim modernization in the West has been covertly undermined by the Saudis and the Muslim Brotherhood, but for the most part it has not been violently suppressed.

It suffers above all else from a lack of Muslim interest.

Muslims don’t spend much time fuming over a progressive mosque that allows gay members or lets women lead prayers. Such places occasionally exist and remain obscure. They don’t have to be forcibly shut down because they never actually take off. The occasional death threat and arson might take place and the average ISIS recruit would happily slaughter everyone inside, but even he has bigger fish to fry.

The best evidence that Muslim modernization has failed is that even the angriest Muslims don’t take it very seriously as a threat. The sorts of people who believe that Saddam Hussein was a CIA agent or that Israel is using eagles as spies have trouble believing modernizing Islam will ever be much of a problem.

They know instinctively that it will never work. Instead Muslims are far more threatened by a cartoon mocking their prophet for reasons that go to the heart of what is wrong with their religion.

Islam is not an idea. It is a tribe.

Talking about reforming the words of Islam is an abstraction. Islam did not begin with a book. It began with clan and sword. Even in the modern skyscraper cities of the West, it remains a religion of the clan and the sword.

The left has misread Islamic terrorism as a response to oppression when it is actually a power base. It is not the poor and downtrodden who are most attracted to the Jihad. Instead it is the upper classes. Bin Laden wasn’t a pauper and neither are the Saudis or Qataris. Islamic terrorism isn’t a game for the poor. It becomes the thing to do when you’re rich enough to envy the neighbors. It’s a tribal war.

To reform Islam, we can’t just look at what is wrong with the Koran or the Hadiths. We have to ask why these tribal calls for violence and genocide, for oppression and enslavement, appealed to Muslims then and why they continue to appeal to Muslims today.

The modernizers assume that Western Muslims would welcome a reformation of Islam. They are half right. The reformation that they are welcoming is that of the Wahhabis trying to return it to what it was. It’s hard to deny that ISIS touches something deep within Muslims. The gay-friendly mosques don’t.

Understanding Islam only in terms of the Koran makes it seem as if Muslims are unwillingly trapped by a tyranny of the text, when the text is actually their means of trapping others into affirming their identity.

There is no reforming Islam without reforming Muslims. The reformers assume that most Muslims are ignorant of their own beliefs, but even the most illiterate Muslim in a village without running water has a good grasp of the big overall ideas. He may hardly be able to quote a Koranic verse without stumbling over it, he may have added local customs into the mix, but he identifies with it on a visceral level.

Its honor is his honor. Its future is the future of his family. Its members are his kinfolk. Like him, it ought to have been on top; instead it’s on the bottom. Its grievances are his grievances.

The rest is just details.

The progressive diverse mosque is the opposite of this tribal mentality. It is the opposite of Islam. Its destruction of the tribe is also the destruction of the individual. The Western Muslim who already has only a shaky connection to the culture of his ancestral country is not about to trade Islamic tribalism for anonymous diversity. Islam tells him he is superior. The progressive mosque tells him nothing.

Whether he is a Bangladeshi peasant watching soccer matches on the village television or a Bangladeshi doctor in London, it is the violent, racist and misogynistic parts of Islam that provide him with a sense of worth in a big confusing world. That is how Islam was born.

Islam began in uncertain times as empires were tottering and the old ways were being displaced by strange religions such as Judaism and Christianity, when its originators mashed bits of them together and then founded their own crazy wobbly murderous empire built around a badly plagiarized religion.

It was horrible and terrible for everyone who wasn’t a Muslim man, but it worked.

Islam is less of a faith and more of a set of honor and shame responses. It’s a cycle of oppression and victimhood. It’s the assertion of identity by people who see themselves as inferior and are determined to push back by making themselves superior. The responses are familiar. We saw it in Nazi Germany as the defeated nation became a master race by killing and enslaving everyone else.

But it’s not those at the bottom most driven by such dreams. It’s the desert billionaires who have money, but no culture. It’s the Western Muslim doctor who still feels inferior despite his wealth. It’s a merchant named Mohammed with a lot of grudges who claims an angel told him to kill all his enemies in Allah’s name.

It’s Islam. And it’s Muslims.

The things that we believe, bad or good, reflect the bad or good inside us. When Muslims support killing people, it’s simplistic to assume that they are robotically following a text and will follow any other text slipped in front of their faces, instead of their passions and values. Religions may make people kill, but it starts when people make religions kill.

The good devout Muslim may kill because the Koran tells him to, but he would not do so if the Koran’s justifications of violence did not speak to him on a deeper level. The Nazis were following orders, but they wouldn’t have followed them if Nazism didn’t connect with their fears, hopes and dreams.

The text is only half the problem. The other half is in the human heart.

Reforming Islam is not a matter of crossing out certain words and adding others. Religions carry a powerful set of values that appeal to people on a deep level. To change Islam, we would have to understand why its ugliness still speaks to Muslims. To change it, we have to change them.

When we talk about reforming Islam, what we are really talking about is reforming Muslims.

Offline Baruch

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2016, 08:22:25 AM »
The average person is conservative .. not liberal (everywhere).  If you give the people a chance to change things, they make it more conservative.  Martin Luther wasn't a liberal.  On rare occasions, under extreme class abuse, you get the people choosing liberal (aka hard Left).  See France and Russia.  So when are the ME countries going to have a hard Left revolution?  They already did after WW II ... see Nasser in Egypt.  Russia took advantage of that.

So yes, either treat people so shitty they go Robespierre on you, or expect ever more conservatism.  This is what happened in Algeria a few decades ago, and their army had to annul their free elections and start a bloody civil war (probably financed by France).  Expecting anything different than history, is daft.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline SGOS

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2016, 09:13:41 AM »
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But Islam does not exist apart from Muslims. It is not an abstract entity that can be changed without changing its followers. And if Islam has not changed, that is because Muslims do not want it to.

I remember when the Bush Administration promised our invasion of Iraq would capture the hearts and minds of Muslims and turn Iraq into a shinning beacon of democracy for the rest of the Mideast to follow.  I remember having a high degree of skepticism about that claim.  In retrospect, I have no idea why I even bothered considering that claim at all.  Yes, we created a democracy, and they voted, but did this change anything?  Well, it did.  But it wasn't the change you're talking about.  All it did was turn the tables on the Sunnis, and create an alternate form of religious oppression under Islam.

I remember Americans that scoffed at the idea that we would create a civil war in Iraq, and I remember Americans for a few years gloating:  "Look!  See!  No civil war!"  Now eight years later, we have civil war and as much chaos in the name of Islam that I can remember since I started watching.  Hordes of refugees are trying to escape to the freedom of free democratic western countries, and Muslims are lobbying their new host countries for more Islamic theocracy and a return to the old ways from which they were trying to escape.

One could get the idea that Muslims want change.  After all, it would be nice to turn the tables and get to be the big dog for a change, but changing the fundamental drag that a political Islamic religion creates on freedom for everyone including "others" isn't that easy.

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2016, 04:38:16 AM »
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I remember when the Bush Administration promised our invasion of Iraq would capture the hearts and minds of Muslims and turn Iraq into a shinning beacon of democracy for the rest of the Mideast to follow.  I remember having a high degree of skepticism about that claim.  In retrospect, I have no idea why I even bothered considering that claim at all.  Yes, we created a democracy, and they voted, but did this change anything?  Well, it did.  But it wasn't the change you're talking about.  All it did was turn the tables on the Sunnis, and create an alternate form of religious oppression under Islam.

I remember Americans that scoffed at the idea that we would create a civil war in Iraq, and I remember Americans for a few years gloating:  "Look!  See!  No civil war!"  Now eight years later, we have civil war and as much chaos in the name of Islam that I can remember since I started watching.  Hordes of refugees are trying to escape to the freedom of free democratic western countries, and Muslims are lobbying their new host countries for more Islamic theocracy and a return to the old ways from which they were trying to escape.

One could get the idea that Muslims want change.  After all, it would be nice to turn the tables and get to be the big dog for a change, but changing the fundamental drag that a political Islamic religion creates on freedom for everyone including "others" isn't that easy.

"OK, now we have invaded for your country for resource and killed millions of your people, we want you to adopt our ways of living and values. See, we are a democratic civilised country, now Vote! If you do not, you don't want change and you won't get civilised!"


I still have no idea how anyone can get this stupid, unless they are literally stupid. This cannot be explained by ignorance.




'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline Baruch

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2016, 06:21:54 AM »
Neo-liberalism is stupid.  It is what keeps us in Korea and NATO, and put us into Vietnam (temporarily).  It is what inspires the whole ME involvement by the US.  We will occupy you for your own good.  This is also what is being resisted by US conservatives ... they don't want to be treated like Syria either.

"PLUNDERERS OF THE WORLD, HAVING EXHAUSTED THEIR LANDS WITH INSATIABLE LOOTING, THEY RANGE ACROSS THE SEAS. THE WEALTH OF ANOTHER COUNTRY EXCITES THEIR GREED; AND IF IT IS WEAK, THEIR LUST FOR POWER. NOTHING FROM THE RISING TO THE SETTING OF THE SUN IS ENOUGH TO SATISFY THEM. AMONG ALL OTHERS ONLY THEY ARE COMPELLED TO TAKE FROM THE POOR AS WELL AS THE RICH. TO ROBBERY, OUTRAGE, AND SLAUGHTER THEY GIVE THE LYING NAME OF FREEDOM; AND WHERE THEY MAKE A DESERT, THEY CALL IT PEACE." TACITUS

Don't worry, this time the barbarians have BitCoin technology, and can resist the Roman bankers more effectively ;-)
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2016, 07:28:58 AM »
Baruch, It's power; political power, resource and money what put US to anywhere on the map. Basic capitalism, neither liberalism, nor neo liberalism.

Excuse my usual style of expression but, a country where won't make any difference if Trump or Sanders to become president; discussing that a regressive left is killing them while it never existed on their soil; where the dominant culture percieves the threat upon themslves is feminism and other SJW groups; people cannot even acknowledge that the unique, unprecedented wildest capitalist system has been fucking them in the ass, WOULDN't know if liberalism were fucking them in the face.

There was an article in New York Times called 'the death of liberalism' and in the whole article there wasn't one mention of capitalism. Not one word, nor an expression even. NOT ONE. I wouldn't know if laugh or cry to this. This is a new york times article, not even the standard moron. How stupid and ignorant can a society get with the available opportunities it has.

I mean, I started to think may be it is better for Americans if Trump wins. I am serious. Because although worried at first for all of us, I am convinced that it won't make any difference and while their usual mumble of their favourite teams supposedly begs to differ, a big majority of Americans DO THINK LIKE TRUMP. They are Trump's people. Some just express it differently, because they do not like the commercial appearance of the creature and it's not their football team... etc.

Don't get me started on American understanding of freedom. It's just sad. Mostly because it is a fantasy and a myth like Jesus Christ, most seculars and atheists devoutly believe in like a personal god. :sad2:


'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline Baruch

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2016, 01:00:59 PM »
Yes not much of a difference in the end, like choosing what socks to wear in the morning.  Americans make a big stink out of things, because we want the attention.

Most of your impression of the US has to come from our indigestible media.  Many actual Americans are like Trump, though not all will admit it to even themselves.

Tycoon and tyrant alliterate.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2016, 05:49:51 PM »
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Yes not much of a difference in the end, like choosing what socks to wear in the morning.  Americans make a big stink out of things, because we want the attention.

Most of your impression of the US has to come from our indigestible media.  Many actual Americans are like Drumpf, though not all will admit it to even themselves.

Tycoon and tyrant alliterate.

Europe is not that different from the US either. Actually, I can even claim that US has a couple better things stuck up Europe will never manage interestingly enough. However in this climate, Americans need to do better. A lot better. Because if they are really proud and fond of their influencial status, this is a serious part of it.

You are not just electing a president for your country. It's always a considerable possibility that you are electing a new war criminal who will be never trialed. This is not a hyperbole. This is the truth.



'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline Baruch

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2016, 10:11:06 PM »
But why the prejudice about war criminals? <sarc>

Call the cartoon Justice League.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2016, 06:33:32 PM »
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Baruch, It's power; political power, resource and money what put US to anywhere on the map. Basic capitalism, neither liberalism, nor neo liberalism.

Excuse my usual style of expression but, a country where won't make any difference if Trump or Sanders to become president; discussing that a regressive left is killing them while it never existed on their soil; where the dominant culture percieves the threat upon themslves is feminism and other SJW groups; people cannot even acknowledge that the unique, unprecedented wildest capitalist system has been fucking them in the ass, WOULDN't know if liberalism were fucking them in the face.

There was an article in New York Times called 'the death of liberalism' and in the whole article there wasn't one mention of capitalism. Not one word, nor an expression even. NOT ONE. I wouldn't know if laugh or cry to this. This is a new york times article, not even the standard moron. How stupid and ignorant can a society get with the available opportunities it has.

I mean, I started to think may be it is better for Americans if Trump wins. I am serious. Because although worried at first for all of us, I am convinced that it won't make any difference and while their usual mumble of their favourite teams supposedly begs to differ, a big majority of Americans DO THINK LIKE TRUMP. They are Trump's people. Some just express it differently, because they do not like the commercial appearance of the creature and it's not their football team... etc.

Don't get me started on American understanding of freedom. It's just sad. Mostly because it is a fantasy and a myth like Jesus Christ, most seculars and atheists devoutly believe in like a personal god. :sad2:




The regressive left are simply confused people who confuse other people with their confusion. They mean well, convincing themselves they are in the right, but in truth they obfusticate. Faisal Saeed Al Mutar, an Iraqi born human-rights activist and writer who received asylum in the United States, presents a hypothetical situation that sums up their way of thinking:

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It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.
It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:

Terrorists: "We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."

Regressive left: "No you didn't."

"Wait, what? Yes we did..."

"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."

"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."

"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."

"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."

"Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."

"What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"

"Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."

"Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."

"No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."

"OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?""










Offline Baruch

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2016, 07:00:19 PM »
All Westerners are degenerate (I mean in a sexless way) ... Left and Right.  No Western political activists could defeat even Fascist Italy today, let alone the whole Axis.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline reasonist

Re: Will Islam Reform Like Christianity Did?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 04:02:19 PM »
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All Westerners are degenerate (I mean in a sexless way) ... Left and Right.  No Western political activists could defeat even Fascist Italy today, let alone the whole Axis.
And so are Muslims. No papacy, no reform, but the stupidity continues:
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Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities
Voltaire

 

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