Require assistance on answering these questions/statements, Cheers :)

Started by DavidOller, April 10, 2016, 02:58:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

DavidOller

Hey I need help to answer against this argument from the creation side. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers :)
_______________________________________________________________________

That's great you've managed to created more gaps for God to fill. The truth is that I'm not one the spoon fed by religion, I asked questions which makes more sense when intelligence is applied to bridge gaps than to assume the universe is based on chaos and disorder. God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter. Tell me, are your thoughts products of randomness or consciousness? this consciousness is it a product of disorder? Because religion cannot base its argument on physical evidence doesn't make its claims invalid otherwise rather it superimposes science in its entirety. The problem is that nowadays people misuse religion for their selfish requests and make God distant them the non religious POV becomes warped about the truth throwing the baby out with the bath water, discrediting every ties to the Creator. We all know this but some people just choose apply the same principles of man to God. They think God is a finite entity that dwells in the Sky, that's limited because unfavourable things happen and fail to see they are part of a grand design.
All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word. Today, the prophecies of the Bible are unravelling : internet, cashless transactions, space exploration, cloning and Modern Warfare are all documented. If we disregard the Bible as the truth because of the God you despise, then only those who pay attention will tap into the knowledge and be able to preemptively avert dangers by calling unto the Savior

Have ever wonder why there are miracles and faith healing that defy medical reports and diagnosis?
Have you asked what happens to consciousness when the body dies? The universe is vast and unexplored dimensions are merely touched and observed and man on his little blue rock doubt the existence of a Supreme Being ,the creator of the universe? Definitely science is taking the common sense out of people and philosophy is doing more harm of twisting faith with facts

One more thing, God is not "god of the gaps" as He's the source of all creation

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” â€"C.S. Lewis

_______________________________________________________________

That is what he said.. I have come across a site that completely obliterates this quote: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/com..._joke_and/

My overall view on the topic is this, which is a point within itself:

It seems like he's not advancing his own position by trying to trash another. It's called the argument from ignorance and incredulity. He's setting up a false dichotomy where either the current scientific theory explains everything, or else "whatever his explanation is" wins by default. Not the case at all. If he did manage to debunk current theory (not likely) then we would simply have no good explanation. We would then investigate to find a new one. We wouldn't fill the gap of knowledge with magical fairy tales. He's really just displaying his ignorance.

In short: "This is complicated and I think it would make more sense if someone did it deliberately" is not evidence. It is the argument from personal incredulity fallacy.

But saying that I would want to try and counter the argument with what was said above and more, be it actually answering the questions or something else that science has taught us.

But the rest of it I would appreciate any assistance. I am doing this more for myself than debating but would like to do both.
Thanks Smile

Baruch

You didn't introduce yourself, in the introduction section ... just sayin'

"bridge gaps than to assume the universe is based on chaos and disorder. God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter."

It is metaphysics, not physics, that worries about things that are beyond proper knowing.  The scientific method defines what can be properly known.  Gaps and preexistence are outside of what can be properly known.  Arguments about things that can't be properly known (aka scripture, authority and prophecy) never get anywhere ... you can't come to a reasonable conclusion with reasonable people, about such things.  Properly known things (aka epistemology) are either empirical (how many pennies do I hold in my right hand) or mathematical (if I have X pennies in my right hand, and Y pennies in my left hand, and they match one to one, then I know without even looking, that they can be counted by the same number).  As my illustration demonstrates ... mathematics frequently overlaps with empirical evidence.  One trick that theologians use ... is the old meaning of "scientia" meant general knowledge, not what is specific to the scientific method.

Furthermore, science doesn't show that the universe is based on chaos and disorder, but probability and physical law.  Physical law provides enough order to get things done.  And in many cases, the best we can do is say how probable something is (thanks to statistics, a part of mathematics) when we can't provide an exact answer.

Randomness is a very technical issue, even for mathematicians.  It is a metaphysical statement to say that G-d is a source, not a physical statement or mathematical statement.  In other words it is a he said/she said.

Consciousness is a very tricky and obscure issue, even for psychologists.  Given reductionism, it isn't a primary science.  Find a Jewish exorcist (aka Freud) and tell me what he finds out about your neuroses.

Religion can make claims based on physical evidence, but the result is negative.  Saying that religion take precedence, is tipping over the chess board, after you have been checkmated.

Bad behavior of believers is evidence against religion ... not a true Scotsman doesn't work in religion either.

If one has a circular argument, that anything science finds, is G-d's word ... then that is good, because then religion is done.

People have always found prophecy being fulfilled in their time ... many believed that the year 1000 was the Apocalypse.  People who predict the future are false prophets by definition.

The Christian savior is Roman Emperor Constantine.  Call on him if you wish.  See if he heeds your call.

There are very good reasons to despise the Bible god.  Metaphysical reasons as well.  I know more about G-d than this guy.

I happen to agree that miracles happen, but they are not reproducible under controlled conditions, and therefore are not scientific.  To claim that they are real, aside from faith, is bad epistemology.

I like C S Lewis as a fiction writer ... but not as a theologian nor as a scientist.  If he doesn't trust himself, then he can't trust his religious opinions either.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

doorknob

To the best of my knowledge faith healing is a hoax. As in doesn't actually do anything.

aitm

QuoteGod exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter.

oh yeah, but don't eat ham, trim your beard, get a tat, spare a witch, and don't forget to cut the skin off your dick……yep…dats some mighty fine thinking of the old wise one.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

kilodelta

"Have ever wonder why there are miracles and faith healing that defy medical reports and diagnosis?"

No. I haven't seen that or read anything reputable about it. So, no point in wondering about it.


"Have you asked what happens to consciousness when the body dies?"

I didn't ask. No. It kind of shuts off like when one is knocked unconscious.


"The universe is vast and unexplored dimensions are merely touched and observed and man on his little blue rock doubt the existence of a Supreme Being ,the creator of the universe?"

That's not a question.


"One more thing, God is not "god of the gaps" as He's the source of all creation"

Obviously this person misinterpreted what "god of the gaps" means. It's not calling their god a name. It's pointing out a fallacy where the idea of a supernatural being is placed outside humankind's area of observation. e.g. Zeus is on Mt. Olympias. We got to the top of that mountain and didn't find Zeus. / God is in the clouds. We've flown above the clouds. No god. / God is before and outside of the existence of the universe... TBD
Faith: pretending to know things you don't know

doorknob



“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” â€"C.S. Lewis[/i]
_______________________________________________________________


[/quote] Trusting your own thinking is loosely related to a brain being designed or created. And brains were not designed they evolved into what they are today. If you go down the trail of evolution there are explanations for how molecules can indeed become living things. Science has reasons and explanations. While religion just has explanations that would be considered typical for that time period. It only further proves that christianity is the concoction of primitive minds of desert people.

well that last quote might seem very cleaver but it is shallow and lacks an actual reason for not being able to trust one's own thinking. The thoughts of humans often are not trust worthy just look at the many popular beliefs (the world is flat) that humans had through out history. Human thinking IS flawed. But that has nothing to do with atheism or thoughts having some kind of contingency on god designing them. Your brain functions no god required. Whether you trust your own thinking well, you can take psychological tests to try and determined if your brain functions as well as it can. Then based on that I would think you could judge whether your own thinking is trust worthy or not.

TomFoolery

Quote from: DavidOller on April 10, 2016, 02:58:28 PM
All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word. 
Really? I'd say it's overwhelmingly the other way around, and that God's word has had to be stretched, pulled, retranslated and reinterpreted in the face of embarrassing evidence indicating God's word is bullshit. The opening line of the Bible describes the Creation story, and let's be honest, no fucking way. God creates things in this order: 1. Light and dark (note that stars don't show up until the 4th day) 2. Earth covered in water (which wouldn't be liquid water with no sun to warm it, and we know that planets are formed from stellar disks, so *poof* there we were) 3. Plants (which survive using photosynthesis, which must be a giant fucking miracle since the sun still hasn't been created) and so on.

Also, ironically, it was a monk who discovered a simplistic basis for heredity which would later be confirmed as DNA in the 20th century, but if you listen to Genesis 30:38-39, cows can look at striped sticks, mate, and give birth to striped cows. Seems legit. Science, once again, bowing to God's word.

Don't even get me started on Noah's Ark. I'm not drunk enough to write all the bizarre inconsistencies explaining how freshwater fish would have never had a chance, genetic bottlenecks would have inbred all species to the point of irrelevancy, and explain how it's kind of odd how species on the North and South American continents and Australia managed to toddle into the Middle East to ride on a tiny boat for a few months and then skedaddle back to the Rocky Mountains and the Australian Outback without leaving any trace of such a magnificent migration.

Quote from: DavidOller on April 10, 2016, 02:58:28 PMHave ever wonder why there are miracles and faith healing that defy medical reports and diagnosis?
Yes, actually, I have. But I just assume that behind every medical marvel we can't explain is science we haven't discovered yet.

Quote from: DavidOller on April 10, 2016, 02:58:28 PMHave you asked what happens to consciousness when the body dies?
Yes, and decided it's probably identical to what my consciousness was doing before I was born, which was absolutely nothing.

Quote from: DavidOller on April 10, 2016, 02:58:28 PM“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought.
Humans aren't the only ones with brains. In fact, nematodes have brains and are capable of learning. We have yet to devise a way to ask them what they're thinking, but odds are, they must think something. All species with neural networks are capable of thinking, but I'm going to assume most don't ponder metaphysics of the existence of God, but go on thinking nonetheless.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

gentle_dissident

Quote from: doorknob on April 10, 2016, 04:14:09 PM
To the best of my knowledge faith healing is a hoax. As in doesn't actually do anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology
The sciences will continue to explain everything. Science eats gaps for breakfast.

Hakurei Reimu

Deep down, it's assertion after assertion after fucking assertion without anything to back it up, without anything to distinguish it from fairies, unicorns and the healing power of bloodletting. Why should God be taken any more seriously than those ideas? Because it's believed seriously by a larger group of people? Fuck that.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Shukhov

Just say prove it. Better yet say nothing as there is no sense in wasting time for "discussions" like this. Your opponent is just another indoctrinated sheep who think that it have all the answers so nothing that you say will convince him.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

George Santayana.

"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth".

Mikhail Bakunin.

doorknob

Sorry you feel that way. But some times there is a point to these discussions. Don't just assume that you can't reach some one because some times it happens. If this person is willing to ask questions they may just be willing to do some critical thinking. If that's the case they may  eventually realize that what they believe is false.

They may not but it is always worth a try. You don't know what the other person is feeling/going through. This may be the beginning of there journey toward enlightenment. Don't stunt their growth. With a little patients success is possible. I was a chirstian once too. I wasn't hopeless.

Feral Atheist

Quote from: doorknob on April 10, 2016, 04:14:09 PM
To the best of my knowledge faith healing is a hoax. As in doesn't actually do anything.
In this era of very specialized medicine, you will never find the 'faith healing' wing in any hospital for a reason.
In dog beers I've only had one.

Baruch

Quote from: Feral Atheist on May 15, 2016, 04:16:17 PM
In this era of very specialized medicine, you will never find the 'faith healing' wing in any hospital for a reason.

However, bedside manner, is part of the doctors tool kit for placebo.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Flanker1Six

Quote from: aitm on April 10, 2016, 04:30:57 PM
oh yeah, but don't eat ham, trim your beard, get a tat, spare a witch, and don't forget to cut the skin off your dick……yep…dats some mighty fine thinking of the old wise one.

DEFINITELY a BAD person!  LOL!