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Problems with Drone Warfare

Started by SGOS, April 05, 2016, 09:20:49 AM

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Baruch

Not a civil war ... the last one did nothing for us.  Bigots are still fighting the last one.  Invasion and occupation.  But then bigots feel immigrants (aka Mexicans and Muslims) are the invasion.

You see a lot of "no dog in the race" talk on the Internet.  It isn't just Americans.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

drunkenshoe

#76
I don't think you got what I meant. So I'll be blunt.

For majority of Americans, war is a virtual game, something that happens far far away where professionals get paid to invade and high tech 'toys' are used to create atrocity and get medals for it. It's a job, it is an industry and that bothers a very little minority in an inherently militarised culture. Culturally, in the US, there is nothing wrong with this. There is no perspective of war, destcruction and its consequences for human beings in real life or even the acknowledged information of what actually happened in the last one;  the scale of destruction created. From the jesus freak to the atheist; for majority, this is the same. 

Most of the Americans culturally programmed not to see the rest of the people -save Europe as they dictate over their culture- in the world as human beings like themselves. This is not just some ignorance, it's a matter of a fantastical, absurd American identity created. They see themselves entitled to this without even realising what actually that is.   

So yes in this sense, it's pretty much just Americans. If a society has an idea of what war is, you'd be surprised how they act when their leaders want to drag them into one. While of course there can't be an old fashioned civil war in the US, it is pretty much about seeing yourself 'untouchable' and 'above all things'. And this is very easy to come by when you are isolated.

The differences in political ideas -on nationalism, international/domestic policies- among atheists and religious groups where I live -also generally in the whole region- is so dramatic, it is almost like they are from different planets. In American culture, there is a very little gap betwen these groups related to opinions of basic politics and only certain topics which I called 'the menu' for many times here in this froum. This is why there is only two football teams in one ground, but they are actually the same team.

(I am not including the minority, I know their position and how painful it is, I am in the same position in the country where I live.)



"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Baruch

Ever hear of the ancient Irish story of a fair fight between two clans?  They showed up on the battle field, but one group had more men than the other ... so the side with fewer men complained ... and the side with more men agreed that fighting would be unfair.  So they agreed to send the excess men on one side home, and fight the following day.  So they got together again, and one side complained that their spears were shorter than the spears on the other side.  The other side agreed that this was unfair, and would cut down the length of their spears to match.  And agreed to come together again the following day.  So finally we have two troops of men, with equal numbers and equal spears.  The side that had the fewer men to begin with, and the shorter spears (same guys) then proceeded to defeat the side that had gone all SJW on themselves.  An American could have shown up with a machine gun, and cut anyone down who didn't flee.  America is never about fairness.  It is always about killing.  So no, I don't want a fair fight on my territory.  Always fight on the other guy's territory, and kill them all with malice.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Mike Cl on April 28, 2016, 12:59:45 PM
If that were so, would there ever be any long lasting ptsd?
The study I saw, in 1993 and written in 1951, noted that the quicker the trooper got  back in the saddle the fewer long term effects. Note "fewer", not "zero". The system didn't work for everyone, some people were just too broken to benefit from it.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Baruch on April 29, 2016, 01:10:21 PMAlways fight on the other guy's territory, and kill them all with malice.
Sounds like the advice I got from a one-legged Marine back in the '60s, "Kill 'em there and you won't have to fight them here." Sound advice.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Mike Cl

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 29, 2016, 04:54:12 PM
The study I saw, in 1993 and written in 1951, noted that the quicker the trooper got  back in the saddle the fewer long term effects. Note "fewer", not "zero". The system didn't work for everyone, some people were just too broken to benefit from it.
I don't doubt the study.  I'm sincerely glad that I have to learn about his issue from afar; I was in the military but never had to see combat.  I am convinced that if I had gone (and I would have gone if so ordered) I would have been a changed man--and most likely a broken one as well.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Flanker1Six

#81
Quote from: Baruch on April 29, 2016, 01:10:21 PM
Ever hear of the ancient Irish story of a fair fight between two clans?  They showed up on the battle field, but one group had more men than the other ... so the side with fewer men complained ... and the side with more men agreed that fighting would be unfair.  So they agreed to send the excess men on one side home, and fight the following day.  So they got together again, and one side complained that their spears were shorter than the spears on the other side.  The other side agreed that this was unfair, and would cut down the length of their spears to match.  And agreed to come together again the following day.  So finally we have two troops of men, with equal numbers and equal spears.  The side that had the fewer men to begin with, and the shorter spears (same guys) then proceeded to defeat the side that had gone all SJW on themselves.  An American could have shown up with a machine gun, and cut anyone down who didn't flee.  America is never about fairness.  It is always about killing.  So no, I don't want a fair fight on my territory.  Always fight on the other guy's territory, and kill them all with malice.

Good points!

I only have two heros; both of them German. 

Walter Kruger-who was the US Sixth Army Commander in the WW II Pacific campaign.  He emigrated to the US as a boy, joined the army, and worked his way up from private to army command.  He started his command out with the highest KDR (kill to death ratio) of any army commander in the war, and increased it in every subsequent action.  He always considered his troops first; though realizing some of them would inevitably die, and did as much as possible to maximize their chance to live and the enemy's to die.  He had a rep for being too slow and methodical for MacArthurs taste who constantly urged Kruger to speed things up.  Kruger opted to back his subordinate commanders who were actually dealing with **** on the ground; frequently battling MacArthur on their behalf (despite constant bitching about Kruger--MacArthur never relieved him of command).  Kruger was the polar opposite of head line seekers like MacArthur, Patton, and Clark.........very low key, and was actually more of a soldiers general than Omar Bradley. 

Eric Hartman (Luftwaffe)--top scoring ace of all time with 352 confirmed aerial victories, hundreds more probables, and hundreds of ground kills.  His preferred technique was to shoot enemies in the back (from above/behind, or below/behind).   By his own estimate 80% of his kills never saw him coming.  Hartman and his squadron surrendered to US forces at the wars end, and were then turned over to the Soviets.  The newly minted E. German government brought him up on phony war crimes allegations, and tried him in an effort to coerce him into joining their Volksarmee.  After being convicted he spent 10 years in a Russian gulag before being released in '55.  He joined the newly formed W. German Luftwaffe..........rising through the ranks to Colonel, before resigning in protest at the Luftwaffe's continued use of the US built F104 Starfighter (aka Widowmaker); which Hartman considered unsafe to fly due to it's very high accident rate and consequentant fatalities. 

I admire Kruger because he was low key, and a consumate team player even though he was the boss.  He always put his men first, and did everything he could to ensure as many of them as possible made it back home.

I admire Hartman (I read his biography years ago) because he made me realize how childish the concepts of honor, fair play, adventure and such are in war.  It is a brutal nasty business under the best of circumstances; wherein the only objectives are to shoot mofos and blow shit up on an industrial scale until those losers on the other side get tired of it.  It's not fighting........................it's killing (goes to Baruch's post), and they are two completely different things.  No matter how good you think you are; bad luck/circumstance easily devours all before it; whether they deserve it or not.  He also ended a career he loved because he felt higher command was insensitive to the troops welfare by continuing to fly a dangerous aircraft.  That's a lot of integrity in my book. 


Baruch

In warrior cultures like depicted in the Trojan War, or with actual Sparta and Japanese samurai ... the deal is for the individual player to rack up honor points, not to be concerned with the overall mission or what is happening to the other troops.  Assuming the Trojan war involved heroic one on one combats ... that makes great literature.  Had there been an American style Greek army, they would have nuked Troy, and not wasted 10 years in siege and raiding.  Same thing happened to the Japanese samurai ... once a lot of guns were available, the mounted samurai were cut down in the 1500s, and then again in the 1800s.  Sparta lost out because there were never enough Spartans ... they did fight well as a team though.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.