Secular means of reincarnation

[Shiranu]

IT would only be "karma" if you were indeed aware of the entirety.

In a Western sense, yes. However in Eastern, "karma" is just destiny influenced by one's actions... that our actions have reactions. We are not always aware of what consequences our actions have, nor that they are consequences, but they are "destined" by the actions we have taken before in our lives. Karma just takes this theory into the next life; we do not have to be aware of mistakes (or positives) we made before (or in a previous life) to suffer the consequences of them.

[aitm]

We are not always aware of what consequences our actions have, nor that they are consequences, but they are "destined" by the actions we have taken before in our lives. Karma just takes this theory into the next life; we do not have to be aware of mistakes (or positives) we made before (or in a previous life) to suffer the consequences of them.

In that case Karma is pretty useless as a deterrent. Simple death supplies us with becoming squishy, mucky  goo before we dissolve into the dirt and eventually be part of the "circle of life". This seems pretty much the same as telling someone ," you may become a pig, but you will never know it"….meh.

[Shiranu]

In that case Karma is pretty useless as a deterrent. Simple death supplies us with becoming squishy, mucky  goo before we dissolve into the dirt and eventually be part of the "circle of life". This seems pretty much the same as telling someone ," you may become a pig, but you will never know it"….meh.

"You" will never know it, but you will experience it. If I told you I was going to wipe your memory so that you never remember being "aitm" then torture you for the rest of your life (or alternatively, shower with you great things and make your life even better) would you still be indifferent? I don't see the relevance of being "aitm" or "shiranu" or "new creature"... what matters is that they believe your consciousness is recycled and you want to be better off then you are now, regardless of if you know it or not. It's your senses that carry to the next life more or less.

[Hydra009]

To me, this scares me simply in that the idea of reincarnation scares me and anything that makes it seem remotely plausible I do not like.

It doesn't matter if you like it or not.  It either is or isn't.  And afaik, there's no evidence that reincarnation actually happens.  So don't worry about it.

[Baruch]

IT would only be "karma" if you were indeed aware of the entirety.

In even the West, starting with Pythagoras, saints are aware of their prior lives.  What makes me a mystic, is being aware of prior lives ... and vivid dreams in general.  It fits with inter-being theology.  I don't see time as linear or cyclic, more like 11 dimensional chess.

[Baruch]

To me, this scares me simply in that the idea of reincarnation scares me and anything that makes it seem remotely plausible I do not like.

If karma was true, okay then reincarnation would be okay. But imagine you are reincarnated... if you are a human, the majority of human life sucks compared to mine. I do not want to come back as some starving kid in Africa or a sex slave or a sweat shop employee or in an abusive family. I don't want to be reborn in a country that stones homosexuals or lacks any type of schooling since you spend all day on the farm. And who says you will even be reincarnated as a human? Being an animal would suck even worse; imagine being born some of the creatures that have the spiders eat their way out of them, or a cow on a mass farm, or so on and so forth.

No, bar karma, fuck reincarnation. That shit is too scary.

This is why Buddhism came about ... given karma, how do I get off this shit train?

[Baruch]

In a Western sense, yes. However in Eastern, "karma" is just destiny influenced by one's actions... that our actions have reactions. We are not always aware of what consequences our actions have, nor that they are consequences, but they are "destined" by the actions we have taken before in our lives. Karma just takes this theory into the next life; we do not have to be aware of mistakes (or positives) we made before (or in a previous life) to suffer the consequences of them.

Thus saints strive to know their prior lives, so that they can correct their karma (harmony rather than justice).  Abrahamic religion has justice ... as being in front of an all powerful all knowing judge.  The only thing worse than karma, is not being able to correct it.  And only humans can correct, if you are reincarnated as anything else, then bad for you, even if you are reincarnated as a god.  Being reincarnated as a god is for a finite time, and then for balance you go straight to the lowest Avichi Hell.  So you strive for reincarnation as a human, who knows his past lives (something you could get a reading on from a Buddhist monk BTW).  When it seemed that even Buddhism wasn't enough, because not only the World, but even Buddhism was too corrupt to be effective, Amida Buddhism was invented.  You could be reincarnated into Amida Buddha's heaven as a non-Earthly human, not as a god, but as a disciple, and from there enter Nirvana when it was impossible to do so on this Earth.

[aitm]

. If I told you I was going to wipe your memory so that you never remember being "aitm" then torture you for the rest of your life

If you could prove you could do it, certainly. But Karma as karma is still imaginary wishful thinking, nothing more.

[Baruch]

If you could prove you could do it, certainly. But Karma as karma is still imaginary wishful thinking, nothing more.

I agree, both harmony and justice are completely imaginary.

[Unbeliever]

This whole idea is called eternal return, or, as pointed out by Baruch, eternal recurrence.

As has also been pointed out, you would not be able to remember any of your past lives, any more than you now remember any of them.

In the ekpyrotic, or cyclic model of cosmology of Steinhardt and Turok (I like that name, sounds like a Vulcan!), the universe has been repeatedly recurring for (possibly) an infinite amount of time past, and will continue likewise into the infinite future.

That still does us no good, as we'll remember none of those past universes, or lives.

Frank Tipler wrote a book called The Physics of Immortality, in which he speculates that near the very end of the universe the computers of the far future will "emulate" each and every one of us, a sort of cyber reincarnation. It was a really interesting book, and informative in many respects. But I think the theory is hogwash.

[Baruch]

Emulating real past people, was part of the plot in the last few episodes of Babylon 5.

[facebook164]

I agree, both harmony and justice are completely imaginary.

No, they are very real concepts.

[facebook164]

In even the West, starting with Pythagoras, saints are aware of their prior lives.

Now you're talking imagination.

[Baruch]

Yes, dreams and visions aren't real, because they can't be rebroadcast on the local news at 7:00 PM.

The only reality is like ... I have five pebbles in my hand, and two people unrelated to me, come and make an independent count, and sure enough they agree that there are five pebbles in my hand.  The fact that there are sentient, live persons involved, fails to attract their attention.  Pebbles don't have dreams and visions, or imagination ... so they aren't real, pebbles are the master race.

[Unbeliever]

Pebbles don't have dreams and visions, or imagination

Can you be certain of this? How can we know for sure that pebbles (or anything else) have no dreams, visions or imagination? What's it like to be a pebble?