Stop fucking whining and fight against real inequality.

[Jannabear]

Hormone treatment issues is not something as simple or black and white as denying or giving it to who thinks they need it.

I think I'll trust the person's sense of agency and what a counselor says over what some dipshit parent with no understanding of biology or neurology says about their kid.

[Jannabear]

As per the hormone treatment deal, I don't feel like it would be medically sound to prescribe such a treatment before the brain fully develops. A transgender child should get counseling, and should have the opportunity to live as the gender of their choice, but I feel like medical intervention at such a stage is unnecessary and potentially dangerous. 18 to 21 is still early enough for the hormones to do their job properly. Hell, I know a MTF woman about 45 years of age who only began hormone treatment a few years ago. She looks like a woman with smaller tits, but according to her they're growing. She's also ex military, before the transition she was a muscle bound hulk of a man. Now she's a feminine flower. I'm not saying hormone treatment is psychologically unnecessary, but that with proper counseling and upbringing it can be delayed until the brain develops more. The teenaged brain is a dangerous thing to mess with, take this from a guy who took (and still takes) SSRIs .

As per the topic at hand, maybe I pick my friends well. Yeah, we'll still get mad if a certain fighter *cough cough* makes homophobic statements, but we do get up in arms about things like Georgia's proposed anti LGBT "religious freedom" bill that passed the senate. We also make the same gay jokes homophobes do. I have weird friends.

Yeah, because going through a big part of your life as the wrong gender, and developing parts of you that will be UNCHANGEABLE isn't COMPLETE FUCKING TORTURE.
I can't fucking believe I even have to say this.

[drunkenshoe]

I think I'll trust the person's sense of agency and what a counselor says over what some dipshit parent with no understanding of biology or neurology says about their kid.

I didn't say anything to support dipshit parents who don't understand biology or neurology. Nobody understands the subject remotely besides the people who are experts on it. When the field is  medicine (hard science) this expertise is not something we can pass angry-emotional comments on according to what we feel. So what I mean is that loading hormones to a body to change its chemical system in a way is not an issue just limited with not providing the treatment because of bigotry. In this sense, 'I think I'll trust a person's sense of agency' is not so much different than, 'I think I'll trust what I feel about my health'. Playing with hormones is not a joke. Needlessly to say,  peolle should be able to get what they need.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Yeah, because going through a big part of your life as the wrong gender, and developing parts of you that will be UNCHANGEABLE isn't COMPLETE FUCKING TORTURE.
I can't fucking believe I even have to say this.

Thank you for your well thought out rebuttal.

Sent from Hell

[Nonsensei]

Thank you for your well thought out rebuttal.

Sent from Hell

Janna doesn't give a shit about the argument against. Either jump on board or you're a moron.

[chill98]

I am beginning to believe Gender dysphoria is a mask for a deeper psychological issue.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Life is full of inequality and being born one gender or the other is pretty small peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  50 years ago very few if anyone even talked about transgender issues much less acted on it.  Go back a bit further in time and these procedures were impossible so people lived with how they were born.  30 years ago there were almost no internet forums and the few that existed were called BBS's limited to the few people who even had access to computers.
This aside there is a role for parents to play in making decisions about the future of their kids and it's seldom easy.
I'm sure my kids thought it was entirely unreasonable that I made them eat soup more than once a month.
News Flash!  Life isn't fair. When it becomes fair for everyone be sure to let us know.

[gentle_dissident]

Go back a bit further in time and these procedures were impossible

"Some intersex infants and children, such as those with ambiguous outer genitalia, are surgically or hormonally altered to create more socially acceptable sex characteristics. However, this is considered controversial, with no firm evidence of good outcomes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

I was born an atheist, and I know I've been discriminated against because of it.

[FaithIsFilth]

I agree with Jannabear. If a professional thinks it would be best for the transgender person's mental health for them to take hormones, then I think they should be able to start taking the hormones. What percentage of transgender people change their minds and revert back to what they were identified as originally anyways? Is it a big chunk of them, or not really? I wouldn't think it would be that large a percentage, or at least not large enough to say "Don't let young people take hormones because they might change their minds later."

[drunkenshoe]

If a professional thinks it would be best for the transgender person's mental health for them to take hormones, then I think they should be able to start taking the hormones.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

[FaithIsFilth]

I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Some people here think it should be up to the parents, or that a transgender person shouldn't be able to take hormones until they are at least 18, even if a professional says they should be taking the hormones way before the age of 18, like taking the hormones as a preteen or young teenager.

[Nonsensei]

Some people here think it should be up to the parents, or that a transgender person shouldn't be able to take hormones until they are at least 18, even if a professional says they should be taking the hormones way before the age of 18, like taking the hormones as a preteen or young teenager.

I think the real issue here is whether or not a real professional would say that a kid should be taking hormones. If so, what sort of professional are we talking about exactly? I have a super hard time imagining any pediatrician giving the thumbs up to this sort of thing. The doctor responsible for a child's health is not going to be on board with something that has no medical purpose, stunts development, and leads to life long complications.

So if its not the pediatrician, who is it?

[drunkenshoe]

Some people here think it should be up to the parents, or that a transgender person shouldn't be able to take hormones until they are at least 18, even if a professional says they should be taking the hormones way before the age of 18, like taking the hormones as a preteen or young teenager.

OK.

Do you believe this issue is just as simple as letting minors get filled with hormones because they want it? Not even close.

This is something huge. This is not some treatment or a cure that will heal them from a disease and leave them with what they want just like that. It's a long complicated process in many levels. A minor is a person who is not fully developed. Neither physically, nor mentally. He doesn't have the mental fortitude to make this decision that is why she/he is defined as minor.This is the field of medicine. Just before jumping on 'bigotry', there are countless reasons why medicine favours conservative approaches at most times. (That conservative is not the one we hate.)

Saying something like 'yes if they feel like it, they should get it' is just a reflexive, knee jerk ideal. It's just empowering to say it. It just doesn't fit in reality. If we could have a way to measure this objectively along with its effect on each individual, yes I would jump on that. Give it to them! We don't. And not just this, but many other things don't work this way in medicine.

When you look at this from an individual's aspect, it is pretty bad. I can build the empathy.

This is also about changing

-a fundamental principle in medicinal law concerning parental rights, parental care and children's rights. It's not something that you can tweak and change without affecting any other thing, medicinal or not.

-and another fundamental principle of law that 'do minors have a rights over themselves to make this kind of decisions about any aspects of their lives'?

-if they have, why not any other?

-if all, why under 18 is defined as minor?

-if shouldn't, where the minor definition starts?

...etc.

This is not an issue of 'if they want it, they should have it'.

[mauricio]

OK.

Do you believe this issue is just as simple as letting minors get filled with hormones because they want it? Not even close.

This is something huge. This is not some treatment or a cure that will heal them from a disease and leave them with what they want just like that. It's a long complicated process in many levels. A minor is a person who is not fully developed. Neither physically, nor mentally. He doesn't have the mental fortitude to make this decision that is why she/he is defined as minor.This is the field of medicine. Just before jumping on 'bigotry', there are countless reasons why medicine favours conservative approaches at most times. (That conservative is not the one we hate.)

Saying something like 'yes if they feel like it, they should get it' is just a reflexive, knee jerk ideal. It's just empowering to say it. It just doesn't fit in reality. If we could have a way to measure this objectively along with its effect on each individual, yes I would jump on that. Give it to them! We don't. And not just this, but many other things don't work this way in medicine.

When you look at this from an individual's aspect, it is pretty bad. I can build the empathy.

This is also about changing

-a fundamental principle in medicinal law concerning parental rights, parental care and children's rights. It's not something that you can tweak and change without affecting any other thing, medicinal or not.

-and another fundamental principle of law that 'do minors have a rights over themselves to make this kind of decisions about any aspects of their lives'?

-if they have, why not any other?

-if all, why under 18 is defined as minor?

-if shouldn't, where the minor definition starts?

...etc.

This is not an issue of 'if they want it, they should have it'.

I agree with this,the hormone treatment seems to be pretty messy coupled with the difficulty of diagnosing. I imagine this as a child in need a of complex risky surgery or a treatment with significant chances of complications or undesired side effects. It should be left to the parents to be consistent with the current rules and ethics.

[Baruch]

Even trans-sexuals can believe that the end justifies the means.  This particular evil is run all thru society, at every level, for every cause, laudatory or ignoble.