Author Topic: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!  (Read 1268 times)

Offline Outren (OP)

For a long time in my life I have looked at the concepts of religion and after 2 years of gathering and gaining new information I have finally come to understand each individual religions down to the very oddest and unheard of there is. However I will make it clear I am neither with nor am I against believing in something of having a belief system. Yet I feel its time I put my name out there in the world by attacking and challenging the basic core concepts of why people do or do not believe in something and thus I make my statement clear, my rambling have a deeper meaning which is to start a debate, and I wish those of a sound mind would depict and challenge my answer to the ever lasting question of who is right or wrong:

I only seek word with those of an open mind, for those with their mind's eye open have the potential to gather and attain better information than to those who stay in a constant steady flow of black and white. I speak to those who keep their views of how the religious side of this world is and should be. Do you not see past your own blindness? One constantly blaming the other for failing to have 'proof' or failing to meet some requirement and thus you become confused, frustration and its a constant struggle to lay claim to whose right and wrong. I'm sure I speak truth, and I say to you to hope yo quell your hearts only if momentarily to hear an old fools ramblings, but do you know of yin and yang?

Its typically how believers and non-believers act, the majority of black and majority of white are always polar opposite and move in an harmonious flow one never overtaking the other and this will stay for an eternity to be true. However do you fail to notice in that majority of white and black there is always a small portion, the 25% that stays small and silently moving along in this flow of 'light and dark' and its never clear of their true purpose as this is to represent the embodiment of those people and the majorities unknowing acceptance to the other side yet blinded by years and years of confusions based on time that the world tries to correct by filling the gaps through ancient texts deciphered by man and passed down to others of blind faith and blind hatred, adding fire to the eternal flame I wish to clench.

In the religious aspects, every single one mind you, have something in common despite its many various forms of who believes in what. That is other than the obvious answer of "They all believe in a god or deity" would be actually much more complex and overlooked by lack of proper research. The point is, people of religious faith only become religious NOT by something that was trained for you to believed in at a young age, NOT by that of social or other effects of pressure and arguably NOT by one's own choice. They simply are religious because its a coping mechanism for the fear of the unknown aka death as we call it.

The human mind lives for making sure its body functions well and is as stable as possible for its longevity in its lifespan. When the human mind faces something unknown common effects are feeling nervous or scared as the majority of people are, and its why we have religion to quell our fears and try to answer some of most life's infuriating questions: "How did the world come to be? Who were we as people before?". Religion is the answer the mind can properly digest and make sense of because at our current level in technology, its humanly impossible to go physically see the answer for ourselves and the mind typically has a hard time figuring out what can't be figured out easily or at all for that matter.

On the flip side, those who lack in faith only do so because of multiple reasons but all of them have a common core to it as well and that being people who lack in faith of a god or deity simply rejects it because their minds have been trained to respond by not fearing the unknown and what will happen next after death and they aren't infuriated by what happened in the past or who we might have been because they have been trying their hardest to go back using what they've been given now by those left behind to try and figure out in a sense who we are in the ever changing world of today, using logical means something that makes 'proper sense' to answer the questions we all want a solid answer to. Its not that they don't care or aren't curious themselves, but they just aren't sure how to approach such a difficult and unknown problem and be able to rebuttal against believers who already found their answer through what can arguably be called questionable means.

I believe that this world and young people today will find something that will cause the biggest change in time that will change the world over but until that time will will continue to have our young outspoken yin's and yang's. To those 25% embodied individuals reading this, I do encourage you to speak out against this ever-flowing argument in time, for I am old and withering as time goes on but you have the opportunity to continue my message in hopes of changing those who are of yin and yang. And to the majority with the hearts of the 25% I urge you all to see life in both aspects and respect them as you would a mother or a father, it may seem silly to some but others have no choice because its a primal fear that cannot be easily shaken and I urge you to open up our mind's eye all of you, and see the world through a whole new lens.

One more thing to address as i'm sure most people will ask would be: "Well what is your standing? there can't be a middle ground" and i'm sure or at least I hope you will try to defend an old man like me in saying that If I were to place a name on what I feel or where I am that opposes both religious and non-religious beliefs and views the world in harmonious fashion with an answer to be told one way or another would or could possible be called "Beyond Invisible Trivial Barriers" or my teachings of BITB. I have much more to share to those willing to listen before my time on this earth ends.

Now who wants to liven up this old man's day and challenge my words with one's of your own? I invite you to speak freely and I shall answer you as soon as I can whenever I can as soon as possible. In my opinion its better to fight with words because only then can we truly understand the other's side and not be lost in our own misguidance.

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2016, 08:52:31 AM »
Quote
...after gaining new information...

Offline SGOS

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2016, 09:12:39 AM »
I'm not sure I understand what is going on here.  Is this a call for everyone to live in peace and harmony?  You might want to post  in a Christian forum and ask them their secrets to keeping an open mind, accepting others, and not passing judgment.  Also, check in a Muslim forum, and ask how they were able to become the world's foremost religion of peace.

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2016, 09:31:57 AM »
I agree with you that religion is a coping mechanism for death. Also it is used to control people.

Offline Outren (OP)

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2016, 09:44:26 AM »
The goal of this here to to reach out to people and make change. People in my opinion are to stubborn to drop what they strongly believe in and ignore what other are saying branding it as nothing more than nonsense. This is an incorrect way of trying to solve this everlasting debate of whose right or wrong when in fact we shouldn't look at it that way but we do. And Religion can be used in the ways for fear and controlling others but this is only because most fear what will happen next because they have no way of knowing. People try and claim their religion or non beliefs to be true or better and take it to the far extremes but that is why people cling to religion or their own ways of thinking because they don't know when the next extremist will come, they don't want to get hurt or judged badly so they stay with the swarm that's controlled by those of blind faith who truly ignore the ways of the new and ever changing. If people had more of a voice that 25%, and gathered up the tenacity to explore and gather knowledge to better understand why instead of who's better or trying to see who's valid or not because we are humans all in the same no matter where you come from or who you are we all have or had arms, legs, hair, a brain and desires for something better.

This challenge, this outcry for help from the 25% and the majority is not for everyone to live together in peace and harmony, its for everyone to understand one another as humans better because despite us thinking we know the other person we know next to nothing other than text books and stereotypes which isn't the proper way to know how other humans are at all

Offline Baruch

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2016, 10:04:47 AM »
Change is beneficial when we are interrupting it.  Water flows even if the beavers dam the river ... but their interrupting the flow, is very beneficial.  This is also why people build dams ... temporarily interrupting the flow, because the act of interrupting the flow is beneficial to people.

So don't ask for more change, ask to interrupt the change that is already happening ... because that would be beneficial.  Asking for more change, is like asking for the clock to speed up, so we can die sooner.
שלום

Offline SGOS

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2016, 10:07:01 AM »
I think you may be making too many assumptions when you suggest that others don't understand the beliefs of others.  It's not true in my case, at least as it extends to Christianity from which I came.  I understand it.  Believe me, I understand it, which is exactly the reason I reject it.  Understanding is not the issue.  It does not guarantee acceptance, nor is there any reason to think that it should. 

Offline Outren (OP)

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2016, 10:24:58 AM »
I too came from the christian branch many decades ago and I too have had my ill feelings towards it and its ways of going about, however that changed because I simply did not know what I couldn't comprehend and because I was so confused I had to seek guidance from others through different views and different voices. To compare water to change is very perplexing I will admit however that saying could be viewed another way. The water shall flow even if the beaver builds a damn, meaning that despite change being stopped it will continue to find a way to move forward because that is life. Life is that flowing water and as people moving within the water there will always be obstacles within our path that we must stop, reflect, and move on past the obstacle no matter what because change will always continue to move forward despite the temporary stops and those who wish to stop are the very people I yell out to to realize that you should want to block it because asking for blockage in change, letting all the potential possibilities we could have used in our time to change something in our world and make it better, is indeed like asking for the clock to speed up, so we can die sooner.

And also, just knowing one of something that goes far beyond what you used to know isn't the proper way to go about it, and this is what some fail to realize and your point SGOS becomes rather valid in fact. I do not speak as a being that knows nothing or knew nothing I have had my experiences and have had a base origin for religious beliefs ^.^

And please I ask that you do not become angry or upset, that is not my intention, but that you just seek answers in a formal/informal conversation with an ol coot like myself

Offline SGOS

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2016, 11:09:10 AM »
And please I ask that you do not become angry or upset, that is not my intention, but that you just seek answers in a formal/informal conversation with an ol coot like myself

I'm not angry. I am not seeking answers from you.  I'm trying to understand you, which I don't yet.  I've responded to you with comments based on vague understandings because your initial comments haven't offered enough clarity for me.  I'm trying to understand your ideas, and a host of other things about you as well, such as your biases, motivations, and your actual skills at communication.  It's all part of the process.

Offline Outren (OP)

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 11:21:35 AM »
Ah I see, well I have nothing to hide I tell this in truth. And I was just mentioning that in case anyone was to get riled up or upset by my ideals and rebuttals and just saying that I simply do not wish any negativity from the outside populace or by you, and that its not my intention to make it as such.

And I have told you that I do not favor one or the other believe it or not. That may sound a little odd but I hope I can convince you as best as I can, truth be told despite my feelings towards both sides it doesn't make me favor either simply because the whole point of me communicating with others is to no try and lay claim to what should be. This is why I title it as a challenged to all people of faith and of people with no faith because even at my age I still have room for growth and I do not know everything there is to know, but knowing and learning from other people's experiences and challenges is what I want to help make me a better person so I can try and unify this confused time period. I understand that I am not the first and certainly won't be the last to try something like this, but its better for individuals like myself to have an open mind to all because that helps in the process.

My motivations come from many different pieces and parts of my life that if I tried to explain them all i'd might as well write or rather type a book ^.^. To make it as simple as  possibly can my motivation is the fact that there is still hope and room for growth and change in the world. Please, I welcome all who do not understand and wish to know more to ask more and as much as you like

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 11:36:20 AM »
Ah I see, well I have nothing to hide I tell this in truth. And I was just mentioning that in case anyone was to get riled up or upset by my ideals and rebuttals and just saying that I simply do not wish any negativity from the outside populace or by you, and that its not my intention to make it as such.

And I have told you that I do not favor one or the other believe it or not. That may sound a little odd but I hope I can convince you as best as I can, truth be told despite my feelings towards both sides it doesn't make me favor either simply because the whole point of me communicating with others is to no try and lay claim to what should be. This is why I title it as a challenged to all people of faith and of people with no faith because even at my age I still have room for growth and I do not know everything there is to know, but knowing and learning from other people's experiences and challenges is what I want to help make me a better person so I can try and unify this confused time period. I understand that I am not the first and certainly won't be the last to try something like this, but its better for individuals like myself to have an open mind to all because that helps in the process.

My motivations come from many different pieces and parts of my life that if I tried to explain them all i'd might as well write or rather type a book ^.^. To make it as simple as  possibly can my motivation is the fact that there is still hope and room for growth and change in the world. Please, I welcome all who do not understand and wish to know more to ask more and as much as you like
Yes, people are just people.  We all have the same basic wants and desires.  You could touch a random person from Africa, or Asia, or the Mid East, or Europe, or North America, Central America, South America or any other region you can name--and they could be of any ethnic background, any culture and they would basically say the same thing--I want to be left alone to provide for and love my family, to live peacefully with my neighbors and basically just live life.  We all want that.  So, why don't we all live in peace?  Many factors--religion is one huge one, for the leaders of each one insists that theirs is the only way; economic power; politics; all these factors lead to unrest or frustration.  This is very simplified, or course.  But you get the idea.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Outren (OP)

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 11:57:07 AM »
Yes I do, this world can be a mess once you look at the whole thing sometimes you wonder what are we thinking, why hasn't there been peace yet? But that's only because in my opinion people try to tackle on all the problems at once which slows everything down worldwide. We don't have enough people as a unified group and an open mind to get rid of one of the major factors. If we did I bet you a right arm and a leg we'd make leaps and bounds towards something better.

There will always be obstacles but we have to get rid of the least challenging before we take on the big, we can't have everyone trying to kill one another AND achieve peace it simply doesn't work in such a way and I hope that through my message, or the later generations to come will find a way to end the infinite loop that we currently stand in

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 03:28:32 PM »
Do you expect me to read all of that?


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 05:52:43 PM »
All I ever ask of believers is proof for the existence of any god or gods.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Challenging everyone! Believers and Non! This old man's plea for change!
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 06:15:12 PM »
Do you expect me to read all of that?
The OP is hard to read. I tried to break down each paragraph into a sentence. However, I'm not sure I got it right, as those are some strangely winding paragraphs. Here goes...

"I've studied many religions, and don't care whether you believe or not.

Religion versus atheism is a natural dichotomy that should be respected.

There are dichotomous agents among us.

Being able to ponder our own deaths scares people into inventing an afterlife.

God is of the gaps.

Atheists are fearless and logical.

Dichotomous agents should be dichotomous agents.

Oh, the stories I could tell.

Come at me bro."

I have no choice but to be around religious people. I'm nice to them, since I'm a nice person. This has not prevented them from being angry at me for flying in the face of their beliefs. I figure they're just insecure about their faith.