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If you support shillary...

Started by Jannabear, February 19, 2016, 06:23:01 AM

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Hydra009

How is Bernie's economic platform allegedly being bad relevant to both candidates' stances on gay rights?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29TBHbqoRB8

Jannabear

Quote from: GreatLife on February 19, 2016, 07:45:46 AM
So... Any opinion different than yours qualifies the holder as either ignorant or insane and they deserve the name calling that you wrote.

Got it, but I am going to ignore it (and this whole thread) due to the simplistic nature of your assumptions on who I am.

So let me be clear. I intend to support Hillary over Bernie. My reasons are private. I am neither ignorant or insane. So by simple counter-example, you are obviously wrong. Maybe there are other reasons that you are ignorant to or you simply can't comprehend for my supporting Clinton.

You seem to love to complain about how people treat you, and this is how you treat others. Pot... Kettle comes to mind.
Well you're definitely on the ignorant side of this... Considering the video literally shows a fuck ton of her inconsistencies and lying.
But if you want to vote in a pseudo democrat then that's your choice.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 19, 2016, 11:20:40 AM
How is Bernie's economic platform allegedly being bad relevant to both candidates' stances on gay rights?



It doesn't matter as the stand of both Hillary and Sanders on gay issues is that they both are in favor of gay rights and gay marriage - they only took different roads to get there, and it matters not who got there first. But economic policies, which will be the bread and butter issue no president can avoid, make them totally different. I think some people can't see the forest from the trees.

Jannabear

Quote from: josephpalazzo on February 19, 2016, 09:07:10 AM
Hillary has evolved on her positions. So what? I prefer someone who is flexible than someone who is an ideologue and can never change position on any issues. The latter is dangerous, the former will give you practical results. And politics is the art of compromise.
No one changes COMPLETELY from a homophobic republican to a LGBT rights supporting democrat that quickly, all conveniently as the polls change to match what she's saying.
If you don't like people capitulating to what's popular, don't support hillary.
And the video wasn't just her "changing her mind" on shit, it showed her outright lying multiple times.

Jannabear

Quote from: Atheon on February 19, 2016, 09:44:06 AM
One of the silliest charges leveled against Hillary is that she "used to oppose gay marriage, but then she changed her mind." She has long been a supporter of gay rights, but when she was running for Senate, it was a time when voicing support for gay marriage was political suicide.
So at the very least she's a capitulating pussy who doesn't stand by character, thanks, that's what I've been trying to tell people.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Jannabear on February 19, 2016, 11:49:32 AM
No one changes COMPLETELY from a homophobic republican to a LGBT rights supporting democrat that quickly, all conveniently as the polls change to match what she's saying.
If you don't like people capitulating to what's popular, don't support hillary.
And the video wasn't just her "changing her mind" on shit, it showed her outright lying multiple times.

That change for Hillary took place over 40 years, a lot longer than you were on this planet I would guess. So yes, it can happen, it has happened as I know hundreds of such people, so unless you're willing to base your opinions on facts, you are just grasping at straws.

Jannabear

#21
Quote from: josephpalazzo on February 19, 2016, 11:54:50 AM
That change for Hillary took place over 40 years, a lot longer than you were on this planet I would guess. So yes, it can happen, it has happened as I know hundreds of such people, so unless you're willing to base your opinions on facts, you are just grasping at straws.
She made a comment against it...
in fucking 2010
"so unless you're willing to base your opinions on facts"
And it's not just her position on gay marriage, it's the fact that there's one of 2 possibilities, either she changed her positions, and she's just catching up with bernie sanders on literally EVERY FUCKING ISSUE.
Or she's a manipulative capitulating power hungry bitch with no code of ethics who only cares about money and the furtherance of her own power.
She lied through her teeth about her emails, she dodges questions by laughing, she's literally the most moderate democrat when it comes to economics and she's not welling to bring about literally any fucking change, she's not a socialist, which is what we need RIGHT NOW.
She takes money from corporations, one of which she publicly said she's against.
She's either doing it for money and power, or she's just another obama.
So I don't really know what you can find positive in her, she's either a completely power hungry manipulative bitch, the next obama, or both.

Poison Tree

Voters say that they want a president who is to the right of Obama; Sanders is considerably to his left. This, combined with the "socialist/communist" attack waiting against Sanders has several political scientists thinking that Sanders would get perhaps 10% less of the general election vote. If you accept this line of argument (which I at least half do) then Clinton +10% is the obvious winner.


Obama barley managed to close that gap with the advantage of being the incumbent. Could Sanders close a bigger gap with  "socialist/communist" hanging around his neck? I don't think so.

I think that the best case scenario is Clinton v Cruz with a jilted Trump running as an independent and splitting the conservative vote.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Jannabear

Quote from: Poison Tree on February 19, 2016, 12:09:53 PM
Voters say that they want a president who is to the right of Obama; Sanders is considerably to his left. This, combined with the "socialist/communist" attack waiting against Sanders has several political scientists thinking that Sanders would get perhaps 10% less of the general election vote. If you accept this line of argument (which I at least half do) then Clinton +10% is the obvious winner.


Obama barley managed to close that gap with the advantage of being the incumbent. Could Sanders close a bigger gap with  "socialist/communist" hanging around his neck? I don't think so.

I think that the best case scenario is Clinton v Cruz with a jilted Trump running as an independent and splitting the conservative vote.
His support is fucking snowballing at this point, he started at 0.8 percent and now he's really close to hillary.

Poison Tree

Quote from: Jannabear on February 19, 2016, 12:14:53 PM
His support is fucking snowballing at this point, he started at 0.8 percent and now he's really close to hillary.
Among Democratic primary voters.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Jannabear

Quote from: Poison Tree on February 19, 2016, 12:18:43 PM
Among Democratic primary voters.
So why in general election polls does he do much better then hillary....
And hillary is very likely to lose in a general election with all of the shit going on regarding her being a manipulative bitch, her emails, etc.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Jannabear on February 19, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
She made a comment against it...
in fucking 2010


I'm responding to your claim: "from a homophobic republican to a LGBT rights" She was a Republican in 1968. It's more than 40 years ago.

Quote"so unless you're willing to base your opinions on facts"


See the above reply - it's more than 40 years over which she has changed her positions. So get your facts straightened out.


QuoteAnd it's not just her position on gay marriage, it's the fact that there's one of 2 possibilities, either she changed her positions, and she's just catching up with Bernie sanders
There's a third possiblity on which you are either totally blind or willfully ignoring it: she actually evolved.




Quoteon literally EVERY FUCKING ISSUE.


Get your facts straightened out, her economic policies are totally different than Sanders, just as one example.



QuoteOr she's a manipulative capitulating power hungry bitch with no code of ethics who only cares about money and the furtherance of her own power.


Ethics is a work in progress, unless you believe in God who decreed for all time what's right or wrong. So you should know that applying your ethics on someone else is totally unacceptable.  If I would apply my code of ethics on you, you'd be the first to scream murder, so don't apply yours on Hillary. That smacks of hypocrisy.




QuoteShe lied through her teeth about her emails, she dodges questions by laughing, she's literally the most moderate democrat when it comes to economics and she's not welling to bring about literally any fucking change, she's not a socialist, which is what we need RIGHT NOW.


First of all, being a socialist is NOT a prerequisite to be part of the Democratic party. Second of all, socialism is a failed ideology. So again get your facts straightened out.



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QuoteShe takes money from corporations, one of which she publicly said she's against.


It's not a crime, it's not illegal, and that money is poured into pac committees over which she has no control.


QuoteShe's either doing it for money and power, or she's just another obama.


That's totally ridiculous - 1) she can make more money on the speaking tour 2) She can't be Obama, she's white AND a woman.





QuoteSo I don't really know what you can find positive in her, she's either a completely power hungry manipulative bitch, the next obama, or both.


That's your opinion which I don't share. Her CV is so extensive that compared to any other contenders, it makes them all look like amateur.

Poison Tree

Quote from: Jannabear on February 19, 2016, 12:22:54 PM
So why in general election polls does he do much better then hillary....
And hillary is very likely to lose in a general election with all of the shit going on regarding her being a manipulative bitch, her emails, etc.
Hillary basically has her floor and ceiling locked in. Most voters don't really know who Sanders is yet and, more to the point, haven't seen the type of sustained GOP attacks against him that will come in the general election and have already been repeatedly unleashed against Hillary for decades.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

stromboli

Changing opinions? 40 years ago I was a homophobic Republican doomsday prepper Mormon. Now I am a liberal progressive atheist Democrat whose best friend is gay. People evolve. And I am a lot firmer in my stance now than I was then.

But that to me is not the issue. Because the SCOTUS decision per gay marriage more or less puts Democrats on the side of liberalism whether they choose it or not. To do so would alienate the Democratic base. You can trump Bernie's policies all you want, but when he declares himself a socialist and everyone identifies him as an atheist, whether he is or not, is at this point in time is not a winner politically.

Hillary is default the best choice overall because she falls on the correct side politically and whether we like it or not, a relationship with big money is better than not having one. And I don't think Sanders is up to speed foreign policy wise, which is critical. You can say Hillary was not the best Sec. of state, but she has experience and she is smart, very smart. She spent 8 years in the White House watching the business, has been a senator and Sec.of state. That is better overall than any of her opponents and she has all her marbles in the same bucket, whether we like her or not.

I also believe she was appointed Sec.of state to set her up for the presidency. And I think that might have been a deal between her and Obama. There was a lot of acrimony when Obama got elected, but he never failed to see she had political clout, and Sec. of state is by far the best classroom for international politics.

All in all she is the best choice. It isn't about gay/trans rights it is about the big picture.