Author Topic: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact  (Read 20415 times)

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #105 on: February 25, 2016, 11:15:30 AM »
Apparently you do.
Why? I took it to PMs like a civilized person after Wolf's warning. You are literally the only one continuing to perpetuate the drama, and if this were one of my forums you would be on a 48 hour vacation just for that. Knock it off.
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Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #106 on: February 25, 2016, 11:25:02 AM »
You, and anyone else on this forum, are welcome to continue this discussion as long as you want. But the next time I see you tell a member of the staff acting in an official capacity to shut up I'll temp ban you and the rest of the staff can decide if I was right or wrong after the fact.

 
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Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #107 on: February 25, 2016, 11:38:29 AM »
You, and anyone else on this forum, are welcome to continue this discussion as long as you want. But the next time I see you tell a member of the staff acting in an official capacity to shut up I'll temp ban you and the rest of the staff can decide if I was right or wrong after the fact.
Okay first of all, it's only official if you use the mod mail format, and I am free to consider it a personal opinion otherwise.

Also, this right here is precisely my frustration with the staff of this forum. From an outside perspective, it appears as though there is no communication going on whatsoever. That post you warned me about? I made that before Daniel was banned, back when it looked like the ban reversal would be upheld. I don't know what's going on with you guys, it is extremely frustrating not to know when and how things will be enforced, and since there is no unified voice I can bring my concerns to I have no recourse but to vent my frustration somewhere. Now maybe I shouldn't have told you to "shut the fuck up," and I apologize for that, but you have to understand that things look extremely disorganized from where I'm standing, to the point where I can't tell a lack of communication apart from an organized response.

I said it in a PM yesterday and I will say it here: you guys need to get your act together, because right now it is impossible to tell what's going on and which staff members I should be listening to.
"Existence is beautiful, if you let it be. Life is not a question. There does not need to be an answer."
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Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #108 on: February 25, 2016, 12:01:53 PM »
OK, How's this?

[mod]You are treading on thin fucking ice. I suggest you stop.[/mod]

Yes you got two warnings. Now you've had four. There won't be a fifth.

Yes the mods could have handled this situation with Daniel better. We understand that. You don't like it. We understand that too. In your case I posted what I posted because I didn't want to see you get banned. I'm having a change of heart here.
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Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #109 on: February 25, 2016, 12:12:28 PM »
I don't know if this is the right place but as Hijiri said, it has to be somewhere. We need new rules to deal with the Daniel2021 incident, in which a new poster comes into this forum with this gotcha' attitude. He wasn't strictly speaking trolling nor outright impolite, but the tone of his posts was anything but a desire for discussion. The way he dismissed every poster, his refusal to even discuss any links that were given to him, repeating constantly the same demand, which no one would ever  satisfy, that is the NEW TROLLING. And we should adjust our rules accordingly. And more importantly, avoid the bickeringnot only among members of this forum but also among the mods. So, someone should start the ball, preferably a mod we can all trust, because right now as Hijiri also pointed out, we don't know who should we listen to.


Best regards,
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 12:14:30 PM by josephpalazzo »

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #110 on: February 25, 2016, 12:14:07 PM »
I don't know if this is the right place but as Hijiri said, it has to be somewhere. We need new rules to deal with the Daniel2021 incident, in which a new poster comes into this forum with this gotcha' attitude. He wasn't strictly speaking trolling nor outright impolite, but the tone of his posts was anything but a desire for discussion. The way he dismissed every poster, his refusal to even discuss any links that were given to him, repeating constantly the same demand, which no one would ever satisfied, that is the NEW TROLLING. And we should adjust our rules accordingly. And more importantly, avoid the bickering that unfurled last night not only among members of this forum but also among the mods. So, someone should start the ball, preferably a mod we can all trust, because right now as Hijiri also pointed out, we don't know who should we listen to.


Best regards,
I'd leave it alone. I've requested a 48 hour ban so I won't be tempted to continue this before I finish calming down. Just waiting on it to be applied right now.
"Existence is beautiful, if you let it be. Life is not a question. There does not need to be an answer."
- No Man's Sky

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #111 on: February 26, 2016, 01:28:48 PM »
I think what triggers regulars with posters like Daniel is a few certain things:

-they almost never introduce themselves or they turn their introduction thread into a "I'll teach you how wrong you are, atheists" topic.

-they do not try to build a conversation and go from there, but they show -again- a deliberately agitated stance themselves from the moment they get into the forum. The interaction starts from an already escalated point right there.

-all their attitude is based on "I'm right and you are wrong and I am here to show you this in a minute". They are not really here to have a communication to present an opinion, but show a group full of a forum how stupid they are.


While I completely agree with Pickel on principle, I have to say that at most times what carries the situation to this point is the escalation these posters create themselves to begin with. Should we take the bait, of course we shouldn't. We should ignore them after it is obvious what they are after which is the ideal, but if you think what this forum stands for and that it doesn't have much traffic, it is not possible at most times.

People here want this space to be free form the usual mainstream bullshit -can't blame them- they see everywhere and get triggered and attack at some point. The world outside belongs to Daniels. We are a minority that is considered 'extreme' and 'radical'.

Having said all that these posters could be given suspensions instead of pushing the banhammer. 3 days, 1 week, 1 month.... A scale. May be that would work better.



Yeah like I said, I regret bringing up Daniel in the post. It was never about him and it distracted everyone from the point that we need to not be so hostile.

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2016, 01:34:09 PM »
Yeah like I said, I regret bringing up Daniel in the post. It was never about him and it distracted everyone from the point that we need to not be so hostile.

I know. I support you, I think you are right.
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2016, 10:50:15 AM »
Evolution is not yet a proven fact, it is a theory. There is a huge amount of evidence to back it up, and I am convinced that most aspects of natural selection are true.  However there are still huge gaping holes in the theory.  How (not why but how) did sexual reproduction evolve?  How (not why but how) did multi-cellular organisms with specialized cells/organs evolve from single cells? How did self preservation evolve in  non-sentient beings?  We still don't really know the answer to Darwin's original question that started his quest:  How did the Venus Flytrap evolve?

We need to keep asking these questions to move science forward.  To mock anyone who questions a theory with huge holes is as ignorant as someone dogmatically believing in the bible.

Online Hydra009

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2016, 12:37:28 PM »
Evolution is not yet a proven fact, it is a theory.
Scientific theories never graduate to become facts.  Heliocentrism is a theory.  Gravity is a theory.  Atomic theory is...well, you get the idea.

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However there are still huge gaping holes in the theory.
Oh?

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How (not why but how) did sexual reproduction evolve?
link

Quote
How (not why but how) did multi-cellular organisms with specialized cells/organs evolve from single cells?
How did multicellular organisms evolve?  Or how did organs evolve?  I'm assuming you mean the latter.

Well, we currently have animals with various levels of organ complexity - from complex to simple to practically non-existent.  It doesn't take a genius to connect the dots and figure out that the complex organs evolved from simple organs.  Pick a human organ and you'll find a species out there with a very rudimentary version of it.  Lungs, for example.  Some fish have lungs.  Lungs are homologous with swim bladders, both likely arose from simple gas sacs in fish.  So, it's pretty obvious that lungs evolved from more rudimentary antecedents.  Same goes with other organs.

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How did self preservation evolve in  non-sentient beings?
Is this a serious question?  Seems pretty self-explanatory.  And since when was sentience necessary for harm avoidance?  Someone should tell the horse-fly buzzing about my room.

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We still don't really know the answer to Darwin's original question that started his quest:  How did the Venus Flytrap evolve?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8151000/8151644.stm

Poor soil + sticky leaves -> venus flytrap.  Lots of other plant species made similar transitions.

Quote
We need to keep asking these questions to move science forward.  To mock anyone who questions a theory with huge holes is as ignorant as someone dogmatically believing in the bible.
Her full quote was "Evolution is not a fact. That’s why it’s called a theory! There’s more evidence that the Bible is true."  Pretty obviously a creationist whose denial of evolution stemmed from a religious ideological basis rather than someone who simply "questions" evolution.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 12:59:24 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #115 on: March 29, 2016, 02:24:06 PM »
Evolution is not yet a proven fact, it is a theory.
That's... not how it works. Theories are made out of facts; they do not become facts unto themselves. A theory is the highest level of explanation you can get in science.
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Offline Gerard

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #116 on: March 29, 2016, 02:54:04 PM »
Evolution is not yet a proven fact, it is a theory. There is a huge amount of evidence to back it up, and I am convinced that most aspects of natural selection are true.  However there are still huge gaping holes in the theory.  How (not why but how) did sexual reproduction evolve?  How (not why but how) did multi-cellular organisms with specialized cells/organs evolve from single cells? How did self preservation evolve in  non-sentient beings?  We still don't really know the answer to Darwin's original question that started his quest:  How did the Venus Flytrap evolve?

We need to keep asking these questions to move science forward.  To mock anyone who questions a theory with huge holes is as ignorant as someone dogmatically believing in the bible.


These are not holes in the theory. The theory still works fine even if we don't know some of the more detailed workings of the things this theory explains. There are for instance no huge and gaping holes in the theory of gravity, not even when considering the fact that we still have no clue whatsoever how gravity works.

Gerard

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #117 on: March 29, 2016, 03:37:08 PM »
Actually I am an agnostic engineer that needs to understand the nuts and bolts before I accept anything.  Your pithy explanations did not answer my questions. That article on origin of sex just presented really high level “well maybe it happened like this” explanations.  This excerpt from your article proves my point.- “As acknowledged above, however, serious problems with this explanation have led many biologists to conclude that the benefit of sex is a major unsolved problem in evolutionary biology.”

I was asking how things evolved from single to multi-cell.  I believe they did, but nobody really knows how.

Poor soil does not explain the Venus Flytrap to me.  It would have been much less energy intensive to simply evolve longer roots.  The complexity of the trap would have taken so long that the plant would have dies out before it evolved so I don’t accept poor soil. 

 think the evolution of self-preservation is key.  All organisms exist in a state that is far from equilibrium. The atoms would be in a lower state of energy and a higher state of entropy (which is what all things strive for) if they simply died.  Life defies entropy by metabolizing energy from the environment. That can be explained in a sentient being but how did that evolve in simple things?

I concede you are correct about facts.  However, the highest level of acceptance is not a theory, but a law.   E.g.  The Laws of Thermodynamics have been proven countless times without exception, and there are no unexplained loose ends.

Offline Gerard

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #118 on: March 29, 2016, 03:51:30 PM »
Actually I am an agnostic engineer that needs to understand the nuts and bolts before I accept anything.  Your pithy explanations did not answer my questions. That article on origin of sex just presented really high level “well maybe it happened like this” explanations.  This excerpt from your article proves my point.- “As acknowledged above, however, serious problems with this explanation have led many biologists to conclude that the benefit of sex is a major unsolved problem in evolutionary biology.”

I was asking how things evolved from single to multi-cell.  I believe they did, but nobody really knows how.

Poor soil does not explain the Venus Flytrap to me.  It would have been much less energy intensive to simply evolve longer roots.  The complexity of the trap would have taken so long that the plant would have dies out before it evolved so I don’t accept poor soil. 

 think the evolution of self-preservation is key.  All organisms exist in a state that is far from equilibrium. The atoms would be in a lower state of energy and a higher state of entropy (which is what all things strive for) if they simply died.  Life defies entropy by metabolizing energy from the environment. That can be explained in a sentient being but how did that evolve in simple things?

I concede you are correct about facts.  However, the highest level of acceptance is not a theory, but a law.   E.g.  The Laws of Thermodynamics have been proven countless times without exception, and there are no unexplained loose ends.


I understand you're an engineer. But these are not matters of bare engineering. The Venus Fly trap didn't develop the ability to catch flies BECAUSE it lived on poor soil. Development of longer roots would have taken enough time to kill all of them before that developed as well. The Venus Fly trap however could survive in, and conquer that niche (poor soil) because the beneficial survival strategy was already in some form (perhaps more primitive than at present) in place BEFORE the plant in question entered that particular niche. It could then adapt further by discarding other energy consuming strategies and refining the existing beneficial one. Evolution is not always initially reactive. Traits that seem indispensable for bare survival in a particular niche always are already there (in some form) before they become indispensable (because of a new niche the organism enters or because other strategies are eventually discarded). That is one of the main points that, for instance, the folks who promoted Intelligent design and irreducible complexity, failed to grasp. Engineers are finding solutions to EXISTING problems. Evolution doesn't work that way.

Gerard
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 04:13:51 PM by Gerard »

Re: Headteacher mocked for claiming evolution is not a fact
« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2016, 04:59:20 PM »
"These are not holes in the theory. The theory still works fine even if we don't know some of the more detailed workings of the things this theory explains. There are for instance no huge and gaping holes in the theory of gravity, not even when considering the fact that we still have no clue whatsoever how gravity works."

In my view the inability to explain quantum leaps such as sexual reproduction and the evolution of multi cellular organisms are huge gaps.  I don't deny evolution, but I don't think it is done cooking.

There are very likely huge holes in the theory of gravity.  Since we don't understand it and the equations don't balance, physicists theorize things like dark energy to compensate for their ignorance.  I strongly suspect that in the future when we do understand gravity, Dark energy will be viewed as the phlogiston of the 21st Century.

Also your explanation of the Venus Flytrap doesn't make much sense.  How could such a complex, energy intensive system as the trap, digestion etc evolve in an environment in which it was not useful?  It seems to me that the ability to grow better root or metabolize the nutrient would have evolved faster than the trap system.