Transgender people's rights

[aitm]

*Mod*

Dear Jannabear,

You have some issues, we can see that. Most of us are willing to help in whatever small way we can. Some of us, not so much. You have something that is important to you, we all do. Some of us will try hard to understand, some of us have other difficulties that may be more problematic than yours.

We did not come into your house, you came into ours. Welcome again.

Now, two things.

Calm the fuck down.

Learn how to use the little quotey thing, if you need help, PM Pickelled, he can help you with anything here.

I hope you stick around.-aitm

[mauricio]

The difference here is that transgenderism is not a malfunction. It doesn't prevent or hinder someone from functioning as a member of society on its own. Its only through the prejudice of others that the hindrance occurs.

Source? What i read in the DSM gender dysphoria implied endogenous distress because the patient psychology was at odds with his phyisical body. Which is one of the principal characteristics of something to be a disorder which gender dysphoria was classified as untill they changed the name to avoid stigma.

[stromboli]

Can't put myself in the shoes of the transgendered, but I can make an observation. The problem is simply that we are in transition from a state of ignorance and bigotry to a state of tolerance and acceptance. This forum would not exist 15 years ago and your voice, Janna, would not be heard at all. You might rage at what is happening, but if you take a longer view you can see there is progress. That's me being proactive. Bye.

[PickelledEggs]

Can't put myself in the shoes of the transgendered, but I can make an observation. The problem is simply that we are in transition from a state of ignorance and bigotry to a state of tolerance and acceptance. This forum would not exist 15 years ago and your voice, Janna, would not be heard at all. You might rage at what is happening, but if you take a longer view you can see there is progress. That's me being proactive. Bye.

Interestingly enough... and coincidentally enough... today I saw a bumper sticker that read "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." -MLK

Progress is still progress, even though it might seem excruciatingly slow at times.

Today I also saw a New Jersey license plate in my town that said "OCANADA"... so... yeah.

[mauricio]

Hey hey hey now! what's wrong with mental illness? Some of us around here have one or two you know!

This just proves there is as much stigma surrounding mental illness as there is trans gendered people.

I'd just like to point out, not saying it's a choice or wrong or anything of the sort but...

mental illness are caused by different chemicals in the brain or even an brain abnormality. If your saying transgender is caused by differences in the brain than I don't see why it couldn't be classified as mental illness.

Not saying it is or isn't just saying from a medical perspective....

Gender dysphoria was called gender identity disorder in the DSM-IV and it was changed for the DSM-V it is still basically a disorder but the american psychological association considers the word disorder to attach a negative stigma that will cause them distress so they won't call it a disorder but the diagnostic and treatment remains the same in the manuals.

[Nonsensei]

Gender dysphoria was called gender identity disorder in the DSM-IV and it was changed for the DSM-V it is still basically a disorder but the american psychological association considers the word disorder to attach a negative stigma that will cause them distress so they won't call it a disorder but the diagnostic and treatment remains the same in the manuals.

My research classifies your assertions as bullshit. Gender dysphoria is NOT considered a mental illness. The idea that they changed the name for no other reason than for sensitivity sake is hearsay at best and wishful thinking at worst. stress resulting from it may or may not even occur. "Treatment" involves talk therapy.

[mauricio]

My research classifies your assertions as bullshit. Gender dysphoria is NOT considered a mental illness. The idea that they changed the name for no other reason than for sensitivity sake is hearsay at best and wishful thinking at worst. stress resulting from it may or may not even occur. "Treatment" involves talk therapy.

Thats why asked you for a source. Gender dysphoria is the same thing as gender identity disorder they just changed the name and added some specifics about diagnosing and treating the condition on different age groups. And deleted something about subtypes if remenber correctly. But it still was as the name indicated a condition that generates endogenous distress which is one of the main factors that turns things into disorders that you need profesional medical help for. Like smoking weed is not a disorder unless the cravings cause you distress and affect your normal functioning. With the paraphilias its the same too, you can feel sexual desire for 14 years old girls but unless your desire is primary or exclusive and with enough intensitity to be hard to control and causing you distress affecting your normal functioning, unless those conditions are met on top of the desire you do not fit the diagnosis.

The thing about stigma is not hearsay when it comes directly from the APA
Read http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

Whether you want to call it a disorder or not does not matter really, the concept described in that manual is consistent with other conditions described in it and should remain there to guide healthcare professionals to treat it properly. I actually have seen some people advocate for its removal from the manuals cause you know it's not a disorder herp derp. Surely that would help trans people.... Ultimately whether you want to call it a disorder or not i dont care as long as we agree that is a condition that generates endogenous distress and that the person needs profesional treatment for. This whole its just society that causes them to suffer otherwise if we all accepted transpeople it would be unicorns and rainbows is total bullshit, they would still feel the gender dysphoria no matter how nice and accepting you are to them. Its like depression is not healed because people treat you kindly, there's clear endogenous distress.

[Jannabear]

Thats why asked you for a source. Gender dysphoria is the same thing as gender identity disorder they just changed the name and added some specifics about diagnosing and treating the condition on different age groups. And deleted something about subtypes if remenber correctly. But it still was as the name indicated a condition that generates endogenous distress which is one of the main factors that turns things into disorders that you need profesional medical help for. Like smoking weed is not a disorder unless the cravings cause you distress and affect your normal functioning. With the paraphilias its the same too, you can feel sexual desire for 14 years old girls but unless your desire is primary or exclusive and with enough intensitity to be hard to control and causing you distress affecting your normal functioning, unless those conditions are met on top of the desire you do not fit the diagnosis.

The thing about stigma is not hearsay when it comes directly from the APA
Read http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

Whether you want to call it a disorder or not does not matter really, the concept described in that manual is consistent with other conditions described in it and should remain there to guide healthcare professionals to treat it properly. I actually have seen some people advocate for its removal from the manuals cause you know it's not a disorder herp derp. Surely that would help trans people.... Ultimately whether you want to call it a disorder or not i dont care as long as we agree that is a condition that generates endogenous distress and that the person needs profesional treatment for. This whole its just society that causes them to suffer otherwise if we all accepted transpeople it would be unicorns and rainbows is total bullshit, they would still feel the gender dysphoria no matter how nice and accepting you are to them. Its like depression is not healed because people treat you kindly, there's clear endogenous distress.

The most you can call it is a developmental disorder, it's the way you developed in the womb.
Gender identity disorder implied that it was a mental disorder, which it isn't.
And gender dysphoria and transgenderism are 2 different things
One is being uncomfortable with your body, the other is your genitalia and hormones not matching your brain's structure.

[widdershins]

That's a convenient copout, though I don't remember much of what I had wrote, maybe it was unorganized

It's not a copout, simply what I was responding to.

I don't consider people who say being trans is a choice and people who are against some aspects of transgenderism to be allies, I don't like the idea of compromise on these kinds of topics, it's not beneficial.

Did I say that?  Did I even allude to that?  Of course being who you are is not a choice.  Why the hell would you choose to go through what you go through every day in life if it's just as simple as choosing not to?  The concept that it is a choice is ridiculous to me.

So you say that "Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are"
Yet you tacitly state "Stop fucking whining"
And the wage gap is bullshit, when you factor in what jobs women typically get and maternity leave, the wage gap is significantly smaller, which should still be addressed, but it isn't near as big as feminists make it out to be.

If that's what you heard it's no wonder you're always so pissed off.  You need to chill the fuck out and realize that sometimes people mean what they actually say and stop hearing, "Ew!  You're an icky tranny!" every time someone disagrees with you slightly.  What I DID say is that OF COURSE being transgender is going to be a factor.  It's new to most of the country and it takes a while for people to get used to something new.  What I DID say is that compared to women and minorities you are making progress by leaps and bounds and you should be happy with that.  You should never SETTLE for that, but making demands that you want to use this bathroom and nobody can say anything bad about you ever, that's just ridiculous.  If you've ever read a post here you'll easily see that Christians, the biggest single group of anything in the US, don't even have that.

I don't really give a shit rather or not it will continue to be a factor for some morons, I'm still advocating that it not be, I'm not expecting everyone to change, I'm just fighting for it.
You can fight for everyone to change without expecting everyone to change, there's a difference between determination and idealism.

There's also a difference between "fighting for" and "demanding".  When you're angry, you are probably doing the latter.

Again, I don't really fucking care if there will continue to be fucking morons, I'm still going to advocate that people not be fucking morons.
As for whiney, I'd say I'm an angry person, not a whiney one.

Both are annoying, the only difference being perception.  Neither one makes people like you, so neither one is good for your cause.

I think the fact that you're put under actual danger and much more stress having to use the wrong restroom should entitle you to use the correct one over some puritanical cunts being slightly uncomfortable.

That argument is just some grade A bullshit, there.  The "wrong" or "right" restroom?  As defined by, let me guess, YOU?  And you are "entitled" now, are you?  You are "entitled" to be the only one in the restroom who is "comfortable" because you "might" be made uncomfortable or put in danger in the other restroom?  THIS is the self-centeredness I was talking about.  You use absolute terms to state your opinion, your side as an absolute.  You are not "entitled" to shit.  You are not "entitled" to follow my 15 year old daughter into the restroom because you're afraid I might pull a knife on you if you follow me instead.  You are not "entitled" to make both her and me uncomfortable because I "might" be an asshole.  You speak as if your feelings, alone, are important because you have suffered.  I don't doubt you have, just as I don't doubt you've had some uncomfortable and probably downright scary situations in the restroom.  But I didn't do that.  You don't get to shit all over my rights because someone else shit all over yours.  So this whole time you are demanding that you be treated with respect you are actively disrespecting anyone and everyone who disagrees with you on the slightest point.  Frankly, you're kind of a self-centered jerk about it with no compassion or care for anyone but yourself, which only serves to reinforce all the stereotypes you hate so much.  You're your own worst enemy on this cause.

[FaithIsFilth]

I'd say that a transgender girl is in far more danger, on average, in the boys bathroom than a girl is in the girls bathroom with a m to f transgender girl in there with her. Transgenders get bullied all the time and pushed around and assaulted. How often does something really inappropriate happen with a transgender girl in the girls bathroom with the transgender girl being the one who initiates it? Hardly ever, especially considering transgenders are a very small percentage of the population. With this in mind, I think we need to let transgender people use the washroom of the gender they identify with, and let fluid people choose whichever one they want. Even if there are uncomfortable girls in the girls washroom with a transgender in there. The transgender girls safety should come before the other girls discomfort. Now, I'm not saying that these girls discomfort doesn't matter at all, even though it may seem that way. I'm saying the transgender person's safety is just more important. The other girls safety is important too, and yeah they're in the bathroom with someone with a penis now, but how often does that turn out bad? Hardly ever, right? How often does a transgender girl get bullied if she's in the boys bathroom? Maybe every day or close to it. This is why trans people should get to use the bathroom they want to use.

[widdershins]

I'd say that a transgender girl is in far more danger, on average, in the boys bathroom than a girl is in the girls bathroom with a m to f transgender girl in there with her. Transgenders get bullied all the time and pushed around and assaulted. How often does something really inappropriate happen with a transgender girl in the girls bathroom with the transgender girl being the one who initiates it? Hardly ever, especially considering transgenders are a very small percentage of the population. With this in mind, I think we need to let transgender people use the washroom of the gender they identify with, and let fluid people choose whichever one they want. Even if there are uncomfortable girls in the girls washroom with a transgender in there. The transgender girls safety should come before the other girls discomfort. Now, I'm not saying that these girls discomfort doesn't matter at all, even though it may seem that way. I'm saying the transgender person's safety is just more important. The other girls safety is important too, and yeah they're in the bathroom with someone with a penis now, but how often does that turn out bad? Hardly ever, right? How often does a transgender girl get bullied if she's in the boys bathroom? Maybe every day or close to it. This is why trans people should get to use the bathroom they want to use.

A valid point...right up until it's YOUR child who is one of the "hardly ever" assaulted.  Transgender does not mean gay, after all.  And if I were a pervert who wanted to peep at girls all I'd have to do is put on a dress and claim to be transgender.  I know that's the Republican argument and, currently, it's not really a thing, but you know damned well that it will be as soon as we decide that people can use whatever bathroom they are comfortable with.

I still think the only real solution is more private bathrooms or a third set, perhaps just a single bathroom for people not comfortable with the more public one.  Yes, the transgender person's safety AND comfort are a concern, and definitely something needs to be done, and sooner rather than later.  But simply mandating that people can use whatever bathroom they are "comfortable with", that is not the solution.

EDIT: I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier, but the best argument against people simply choosing whichever restroom is comfortable for them is that one person's rights cannot trump another person's rights, and allowing people to use the restroom that they feel comfortable with would do just that.  Now, I do realize that non-LGBTA rights have trumped LGBTA rights for the entire history of the country, legally speaking, and still do in many ways today.  And I very much realize this is, was and will continue to be very, very wrong.  They are gaining rights now, which is a very good thing, and there's more work to be done, but in gaining the rights they have always deserved you cannot trample the rights of others.  Non-LGBTA people have the right to feel comfortable and secure in the bathroom too and you simply cannot do away with the rights of non-LGBTA people to give LGBTA people the rights they want AND deserve.  You HAVE to find another solution.

And about your assault argument, allowing them to use the restroom they were comfortable with would not actually make them safer.  If Billy Bob is going to kick their asses in the men's room, what do you think he's going to do when he sees them walk into the restroom his daughter is in?  Is he going to voice his discomfort?  Is he going to keep his mouth shut because that's not his restroom?  Or is the violence likely to escalate beyond what it might have been in the men's room when he was simply threatened by a sexuality he didn't understand, not actually perceiving a threat to his child based on that sexuality he doesn't understand?  We can play what-if all day long.  There is actually no evidence that it would be statistically "safer" for a transgender person to use the restroom they were comfortable with.  It's just as likely it would increase the rate of fatalities, or at least the severity of the attacks.

[FaithIsFilth]

I don't think perverts in disguise are really going to be a problem at schools. Boys are not going to put on a dress to peep at the girls. Perverts already use disguises to peep, and gay men or gay women don't need a disguise. I don't see perverts being much of an issue in school bathrooms. At the YMCA and places like that, you have washrooms/ changing rooms for boys and men being separate, and girls and women being separate, because you don't want perverts in the same room with naked kids. As far as perverts taking advantage of public restrooms by dressing up like women, that already happens as is. How easy would it be for a man to dress up like a woman in full Islamic garb, with very little of their face showing, or just put on a wig and sunglasses? This stuff can happen already. Letting transgender people use the bathroom of the gender they identify with is not going to make girls and women significantly less safe, in my opinion. Transgender people are the most likely young people to commit suicide though. This is a serious issue. Some girls being uncomfortable is an issue, but not nearly as serious an issue when we're talking about the most likely people to commit suicide, and helping them be slightly less bullied or even assaulted.

Do I think schools and public places need a third set of bathrooms? If they want to or if they can afford it, that's fine. Not everyone can afford that expense. The highschool I went to had a shitload of washrooms, so I guess they could turn a couple of those or even just one of them into a neutral washroom or something like that. In the absense of that, if a parent or child is that against being in the same washroom as a transgender person, their parents are free to transfer them to a Catholic or Christian school, or somewhere else they don't have to worry about dealing with this issue. There are choices out there for parents not comfortable with having their child in the same washroom as a transgender person. We are dealing with the group of young people most likely to end their own lives, so I think society needs to do what it can to lessen the bullying and lessen the number of suicides.

I agree with everyone telling Jannabear to calm the fuck down though. Jannabear is turning off even the people that agree with her, and that is not good.

[widdershins]

I don't think perverts in disguise are really going to be a problem at schools. Boys are not going to put on a dress to peep at the girls. Perverts already use disguises to peep, and gay men or gay women don't need a disguise. I don't see perverts being much of an issue in school bathrooms.

I wasn't even thinking specifically at schools and reducing the conversation to this one small area of society really isn't fair.  And you say perverts already use disguises to peep, meaning it is already a problem.  This would give them an excuse when caught.

At the YMCA and places like that, you have washrooms/ changing rooms for boys and men being separate, and girls and women being separate, because you don't want perverts in the same room with naked kids.

Not at the YMCA in my town.  They have a third bathroom for families, though, which is perfect.

As far as perverts taking advantage of public restrooms by dressing up like women, that already happens as is. How easy would it be for a man to dress up like a woman in full Islamic garb, with very little of their face showing, or just put on a wig and sunglasses? This stuff can happen already.

I have not heard of this, but again, if it's already a problem, such a law would simply give them a legitimate excuse.  In fact, they wouldn't even need a disguise then, unless you say only, specifically, "transgender" people can use whichever bathroom they are comfortable with.  What about people who aren't transgender, but still feel they are of a gender different than society perceives?  Are you going to exclude them?  Are they not deserving of the same "rights" simply because they blend in well enough to not be attacked?

Letting transgender people use the bathroom of the gender they identify with is not going to make girls and women significantly less safe, in my opinion.

I really like you.  So few people admit when it is their "opinion", instead choosing to state their opinion as fact.  I like discussions with people intelligent enough to know the difference.  If anyone can sway my opinion it's someone with enough intelligence to understand what an opinion actually is.

Transgender people are the most likely to commit suicide though. This is a serious issue. Some girls being uncomfortable is an issue, but not nearly as serious an issue when we're talking about the most likely people to commit suicide, and helping them be slightly less bullied or even assaulted.

I do not disagree that the one issue is more serious than the other.  I don't know if you saw the EDIT at the end of my post, though.  I added it quite a bit later.  One person's rights cannot trump the rights of another.  You cannot take away rights from one group to give rights to another.  The rights have to be "equal".  Currently they are very much not equal with transgender and other people getting the shaft, so to speak, but you do not fix it by making things unequal the other way.

Do I think schools and public places need a third set of bathrooms? If they want to or if they can afford it, that's fine. Not everyone can afford that expense. The highschool I went to had a shitload of washrooms, so I guess they could turn a couple of those or even just one of them into a neutral washroom or something like that. In the absense of that, if a parent or child is that against being in the same washroom as a transgender person, their parents are free to transfer them to a Catholic or Christian school, or somewhere else they don't have to worry about dealing with this issue. There are choices out there for parents not comfortable with having their child in the same washroom as a transgender person. We are dealing with the group most likely to end their own lives, so I think society needs to do what it can to lessen the bullying and lessen the number of suicides.

There are ways the potential expense could be greatly reduced.  There are currently unisex restrooms with more privacy and with a few better partitions a restroom could be converted to unisex pretty inexpensively.

As for the argument that "if you don't like it you can just move", come on.  If women in Wyoming don't like that there is only one abortion clinic they can just transfer to another state where there are more.  If gays in Mississippi don't like that they can't get married they could just move to Iowa.  If parents don't like Christianity in their children's schools they can just open a secular school  But that's not really a solution, is it?

I agree with everyone telling Jannabear to calm the fuck down though. Jannabear is turning off even the people that agree with her, and that is not good.

Yes, it really turns everyone off to (I'm assuming) her argument.  Fighting for something is all well and good, until you get to the point where you fight so hard for it you're actually fighting against it.

[FaithIsFilth]

I wasn't even thinking specifically at schools and reducing the conversation to this one small area of society really isn't fair.  And you say perverts already use disguises to peep, meaning it is already a problem.  This would give them an excuse when caught.

True. I hadn't really thought of that. I would think that when more than one complaint starts coming in about this person jerking off and trying to look into the next person's stall or something, the police are going to realize that something is probably up and there must be a reason this person keeps getting complaints. Same thing if a man keeps getting complaints about jerking it with a little boy in the stall next to him. The police are going to know something is up with that guy.

What about people who aren't transgender, but still feel they are of a gender different than society perceives?  Are you going to exclude them?  Are they not deserving of the same "rights" simply because they blend in well enough to not be attacked?

I don't quite understand what you are saying here, but I would not exclude anyone.

I really like you.  So few people admit when it is their "opinion", instead choosing to state their opinion as fact.  I like discussions with people intelligent enough to know the difference.  If anyone can sway my opinion it's someone with enough intelligence to understand what an opinion actually is.

Thank you. I realise that I'm just a fallible human and I could be wrong about a lot of stuff. I'm actually sure I am wrong about many things, and have no problem admitting that there are many people here much brighter than myself. I'm constantly questioning my own positions and constantly learning new things.

I do not disagree that the one issue is more serious than the other.  I don't know if you saw the EDIT at the end of my post, though.  I added it quite a bit later.  One person's rights cannot trump the rights of another.  You cannot take away rights from one group to give rights to another.  The rights have to be "equal".  Currently they are very much not equal with transgender and other people getting the shaft, so to speak, but you do not fix it by making things unequal the other way.

My response to this would be that I see a transgender girl as a girl. Technically their sex is still male, and it will always be male, surgery or no surgery, but their gender is female and they are a girl to me, so I see it as girls using the washroom with other girls. I don't see it as anyone having their rights taken away.

There are ways the potential expense could be greatly reduced.  There are currently unisex restrooms with more privacy and with a few better partitions a restroom could be converted to unisex pretty inexpensively.

Yes, the stalls should go all the way to the floor so one person can't see under another person's stall and see their underwear around their ankles. This sounds like a good idea to me and will help with perverts.

[Shiranu]

Source? What i read in the DSM gender dysphoria implied endogenous distress because the patient psychology was at odds with his phyisical body. Which is one of the principal characteristics of something to be a disorder which gender dysphoria was classified as untill they changed the name to avoid stigma.

I actually agree that this can be an issue for experiences and reasons I am not comfortable sharing. I will just say I do know one person who does not feel shame about how society sees her, only that she can never really be a she.