Transgender people's rights

[Mermaid]

You are absolutely right, it shouldn't be a factor.

The only thing you can control is your perspective and reaction. No matter how much you complain and jump up and down and try to educate people, you cannot make them learn. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be on your way to living your life instead of focusing on the bad stuff. You are, understandably, very, very angry. You were certainly dealt a difficult card in life. This is not something a person bears on their own. You might benefit from professional help, and you owe that to yourself.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Ok then.. The entire world is wrong and you're the only one who gets 'it'.. Congratulations. 
The point I've tried to make as have several others is that going through life as a whiney cunt insulting everyone who disagrees with your bullshit is the fastest way to get on everyone's ignore list and just so you don't feel alone in the world you're in good company with the other dipshits on my ignore list.
Nice talking to you. Enjoy your time bitching nonstop about shit most of us don't really care about.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Err..sorry mermaid.. That wasn't directed at you..

[Jannabear]

You are absolutely right, it shouldn't be a factor.

The only thing you can control is your perspective and reaction. No matter how much you complain and jump up and down and try to educate people, you cannot make them learn. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be on your way to living your life instead of focusing on the bad stuff. You are, understandably, very, very angry. You were certainly dealt a difficult card in life. This is not something a person bears on their own. You might benefit from professional help, and you owe that to yourself.

I think that people can be educated, this is evidenced by the growing number of atheists, the growing acceptance of the LGBT community, and people becoming more liberal in general.
And "you might benefit from professional help" was a bit dismissive.

[Jannabear]

Ok then.. The entire world is wrong and you're the only one who gets 'it'.. Congratulations. 
The point I've tried to make as have several others is that going through life as a whiney cunt insulting everyone who disagrees with your bullshit is the fastest way to get on everyone's ignore list and just so you don't feel alone in the world you're in good company with the other dipshits on my ignore list.
Nice talking to you. Enjoy your time bitching nonstop about shit most of us don't really care about.

Nice talking to someone who doesn't want to discuss anything and wants to dismiss those who disagree with them as whiney.
Have a nice intellectually bankrupt life.

[Mermaid]

I think that people can be educated, this is evidenced by the growing number of atheists, the growing acceptance of the LGBT community, and people becoming more liberal in general.
And "you might benefit from professional help" was a bit dismissive.

Not my intent at all. It was sincere. It's your life though, and you're presumably an adult, so your choice. It's crossing a boundary for me to suggest this, I realize. Take it or leave it.

[Jannabear]

Not my intent at all. It was sincere. It's your life though, and you're presumably an adult, so your choice. It's crossing a boundary for me to suggest this, I realize. Take it or leave it.

It's not even that you crossed a boundary, I don't believe in treating people like their opinions our sacred, so if you think that, then it's ok to state it, I'm not going to go ARREST THIS PERSON, THEY HAVE COMMITTED THE ULTIMATE OFFENSE OF OFFENDING ME, I thought the statement was pointless because I'm not emotionally disturbed, I'm just an angry person.

[Mermaid]

It's not even that you crossed a boundary, I don't believe in treating people like their opinions our sacred, so if you think that, then it's ok to state it, I'm not going to go ARREST THIS PERSON, THEY HAVE COMMITTED THE ULTIMATE OFFENSE OF OFFENDING ME, I thought the statement was pointless because I'm not emotionally disturbed, I'm just an angry person.

I didn't imply that you are emotionally disturbed. Mental health professionals aren't only for people who are mentally disturbed.

[Sylar]

Thoughts on how to fix this?

There's nothing wrong with transgender people and most of their problems are the result of social stigma, and social stigma is not something that can easily be fixed or put away; it's a long process of transitioning the society.

Getting involved in grassroots organizations that aim to lobby politicians into passing bills that stop discrimination against LGBT people is probably the best way to get involved politically.

As far as responding to social stigma, it is also not easy. Social pressure puts a huge mental and subsequently physical strain on a person, and you go through problems that the majority of us do not go through, some of which you listed in the OP. You can't just 'fix' people and stop bigots from assaulting or harassing LGBT people, and short of living your life and keeping your head up there's not much more you can do. Talking with therapists may help give you an ear to listen to your problems, but it doesn't necessary have to be a therapist. A close friend will do.

[widdershins]

All I'm saying is that me being transgender, and anyone else being transgender, shouldn't be a fucking factor, transgender people should be equal to cisgender people as a factor, in saying that their gender has nothing to do with how you should treat them, other then calling them what they fucking are, which isn't even fucking difficult and is a basic respect EVERYONE deserves.

I'm not going to quote most of that as much of it is very angry or, frankly, unintelligent.

Let me start by saying the people here are your allies.  In most ways, we agree with you and support you.  Speaking to the people here so disrespectfully is not the way to further your cause.  It's the way you turn allies into enemies who no longer care about your cause.  If you have anger issues, I understand.  I certainly cannot imagine what you have gone through for most of your life and don't pretend to.  But taking it out on people who actually support most of what you believe, even if they come off as a little abrasive, that's not really the brightest move.  Alienating allies will certainly do nothing to help you.

So, being transgender shouldn't be a factor.  Let's deal with that.  Why shouldn't it?  Remember, this is something completely new to most of the country.  This is not something that people are going to wake up one day completely accepting.  To simply expect things to change overnight because it's not fair, well, it's not going to happen.  Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are.  What people are saying is that you should be happy it isn't as bad as it was 20 years ago.  The LGTB community has made a lot of progress in a very short time.  This is WAY more progress than most causes make in this short of time.  The civil rights movement was in the '60s and women STILL don't have equal pay and Republicans are STILL passing bills to keep black people from voting.

You simply can't go from the way it was even just 5 years ago to complete equality instantly.  But you're not even talking about equality here.  You're going a LOT further by saying they should be "treated" the same.  Well, I'm sorry, but that is never going to happen.  Ever.  You will NEVER see that.  People are what they are.  There are people who still use the N word to describe black people.  No, it's not fair, but it's the way it is and it's the way it always will be.  Thankfully, those people are a dying breed, but they will unfortunately never become extinct.  I'm sorry, but you CANNOT HAVE equal "treatment" to some other group.  Being transgender IS a factor.  Should it be?  No.  But it IS and it ALWAYS WILL BE!

So, yes, you do come off as a little whiny.  I'm sorry, and I don't mean to upset you, but you do.  You want everything right now and you're angry that you're not getting it.  This anger is completely justified, but what you want is unrealistic.  You simply can't have it.  It is a fact of human nature.  It is NEVER going to happen.  Just like there will always be some dick who thinks people with different colored skin from him are inferior, there will always be some closed-minded dick who thinks transgender people are inferior.  Always.

You also come off as a little self-centered.  You talked, in your first post, about not being allowed to use the bathroom for the gender you "identify with".  You never once considered the other people in that bathroom and how they may feel about that, just seeming to demand that they should be completely okay with it and if they aren't then it is wrong of them.  It came off as you demanding that you be given free reign to do whatever makes you comfortable and everyone in the country not only comply, but actually be comfortable with it.  Of course, that wasn't what you were saying, but that's how it comes off, which is why people were saying you were whining.  You do come across as selfish, at least in that first post.  APA wasn't picking on you, just being honest with you.  Brutally honest, yes, but honest just the same.

[Jannabear]

(Your post)

this is my response to your post.

I'm not going to quote most of that as much of it is very angry or, frankly, unintelligent.

That's a convenient copout, though I don't remember much of what I had wrote, maybe it was unorganized

Let me start by saying the people here are your allies.  In most ways, we agree with you and support you.  Speaking to the people here so disrespectfully is not the way to further your cause.  It's the way you turn allies into enemies who no longer care about your cause.  If you have anger issues, I understand.  I certainly cannot imagine what you have gone through for most of your life and don't pretend to.  But taking it out on people who actually support most of what you believe, even if they come off as a little abrasive, that's not really the brightest move.  Alienating allies will certainly do nothing to help you.

I don't consider people who say being trans is a choice and people who are against some aspects of transgenderism to be allies, I don't like the idea of compromise on these kinds of topics, it's not beneficial.


So, being transgender shouldn't be a factor.  Let's deal with that.  Why shouldn't it?  Remember, this is something completely new to most of the country.  This is not something that people are going to wake up one day completely accepting.  To simply expect things to change overnight because it's not fair, well, it's not going to happen.  Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are.  What people are saying is that you should be happy it isn't as bad as it was 20 years ago.  The LGTB community has made a lot of progress in a very short time.  This is WAY more progress than most causes make in this short of time.  The civil rights movement was in the '60s and women STILL don't have equal pay and Republicans are STILL passing bills to keep black people from voting.

So you say that "Nobody is saying that you've come far enough and should be happy with the way things are"
Yet you tacitly state "Stop fucking whining"
And the wage gap is bullshit, when you factor in what jobs women typically get and maternity leave, the wage gap is significantly smaller, which should still be addressed, but it isn't near as big as feminists make it out to be.

You simply can't go from the way it was even just 5 years ago to complete equality instantly.  But you're not even talking about equality here.  You're going a LOT further by saying they should be "treated" the same.  Well, I'm sorry, but that is never going to happen.  Ever.  You will NEVER see that.  People are what they are.  There are people who still use the N word to describe black people.  No, it's not fair, but it's the way it is and it's the way it always will be.  Thankfully, those people are a dying breed, but they will unfortunately never become extinct.  I'm sorry, but you CANNOT HAVE equal "treatment" to some other group.  Being transgender IS a factor.  Should it be?  No.  But it IS and it ALWAYS WILL BE!

I don't really give a shit rather or not it will continue to be a factor for some morons, I'm still advocating that it not be, I'm not expecting everyone to change, I'm just fighting for it.
You can fight for everyone to change without expecting everyone to change, there's a difference between determination and idealism.

So, yes, you do come off as a little whiny.  I'm sorry, and I don't mean to upset you, but you do.  You want everything right now and you're angry that you're not getting it.  This anger is completely justified, but what you want is unrealistic.  You simply can't have it.  It is a fact of human nature.  It is NEVER going to happen.  Just like there will always be some dick who thinks people with different colored skin from him are inferior, there will always be some closed-minded dick who thinks transgender people are inferior.  Always.

Again, I don't really fucking care if there will continue to be fucking morons, I'm still going to advocate that people not be fucking morons.
As for whiney, I'd say I'm an angry person, not a whiney one.

You also come off as a little self-centered.  You talked, in your first post, about not being allowed to use the bathroom for the gender you "identify with".  You never once considered the other people in that bathroom and how they may feel about that, just seeming to demand that they should be completely okay with it and if they aren't then it is wrong of them.  It came off as you demanding that you be given free reign to do whatever makes you comfortable and everyone in the country not only comply, but actually be comfortable with it.  Of course, that wasn't what you were saying, but that's how it comes off, which is why people were saying you were whining.  You do come across as selfish, at least in that first post.  APA wasn't picking on you, just being honest with you.  Brutally honest, yes, but honest just the same.

I think the fact that you're put under actual danger and much more stress having to use the wrong restroom should entitle you to use the correct one over some puritanical cunts being slightly uncomfortable.

[/quote]

[mauricio]

There's a notion that it's a choice and that it's a mental disorder, both of which have been scientifically disproven.
(Don't mix this in with the stupid tumblr shit, pansexual is an actual sexuality (I'll date someone regardless of their biological sex, male, female, intersex, transgender, etc)

Do you have a source on transgenderism being a mental disorder being scientifically disproven? That sounds completely different from the statement the APA made about the changes to the DSM regarding transgenderism. From what i read in that announcement they merely changed the name of the diagnostic, they removed the word disorder to not cause stigma and stress but that name change did not imply any significant change to the substance of the diagnostic and recommended treatments.

Also this definition of pansexuality you have of being attracted to people regardless of their sexual charactheristics makes no sense, it is precisely due to the sexual charactheristics of a person that attraction occurs. Though you framed it as "would date" which is ambiguous and maybe you were not talking about sexual attraction exactly?

[doorknob]

Hey hey hey now! what's wrong with mental illness? Some of us around here have one or two you know!

This just proves there is as much stigma surrounding mental illness as there is trans gendered people.

I'd just like to point out, not saying it's a choice or wrong or anything of the sort but...

mental illness are caused by different chemicals in the brain or even an brain abnormality. If your saying transgender is caused by differences in the brain than I don't see why it couldn't be classified as mental illness.

Not saying it is or isn't just saying from a medical perspective....

[PickelledEggs]

I have to second what APA said. It's kind of a rough statement, but it's true. The world doesn't owe you anything more than it owes someone else...

Some people are dealt different hands than others and some of these hands are more like a pair of 3s in comparison to some people that have a Royal Flush. The difference between some of the people with the Royal Flush and the people that go their whole life with a pair of 3s isn't always much. Some people that are dealt a pair of 3s win the whole pot because they make it work. And just because you're transgender doesn't mean you can't make it work; it just means you will face different challenges in your life from someone that isn't. We all have challenges. The people that succeed in life succeed because they rise up and overcome their challenges.

I did a quick search of famous transgender people for you and came up with this http://time.com/130734/transgender-celebrities-actors-athletes-in-america/. even in the 50s there were influential transgender people, so you do you and go tackle life. Not saying you have to be "influential" to be successful and enjoy your life, but you can definitely have a great life either way. And if I haven't made this clear in any recent posts of mine... fuck haters. There will always be haters, no matter who you are or what you do. So fuck them.

EDIT: Also, I should add that it was pretty hard to read your original post, so I tried to get what I could as your general point/question and winged it.

[Nonsensei]

Hey hey hey now! what's wrong with mental illness? Some of us around here have one or two you know!

This just proves there is as much stigma surrounding mental illness as there is trans gendered people.

I'd just like to point out, not saying it's a choice or wrong or anything of the sort but...

mental illness are caused by different chemicals in the brain or even an brain abnormality. If your saying transgender is caused by differences in the brain than I don't see why it couldn't be classified as mental illness.

Not saying it is or isn't just saying from a medical perspective....

The difference here is that transgenderism is not a malfunction. It doesn't prevent or hinder someone from functioning as a member of society on its own. Its only through the prejudice of others that the hindrance occurs.

But if you're schizophrenic or clinically depressed or bipolar, you've got a real problem and it stems entirely from within you. Its not your fault, but its definitely a problem and not just an attribute. I think the worst thing we could do to mentally ill people is to start treating their illness like its ok, like its some kind of unique attribute rather than a problem. Absolute acceptance is just as bad as absolute rejection. Its like saying cancer is ok, because thats just how your body developed. No, its a problem that needs to be dealt with.

On a different vein, I think the biggest problem transgendered people face is from the very large group of people who don't want to be told what to think. They see transgendered people as doing this.

For example, a transgendered woman wants to be referred to as a man. You decide not to do so because you don't feel like anyone has the right to alter the way you perceive and label things. He gets furious and gets people to shame you for refusing. Now you feel like they're trying to force you to see the issue their way. Theres a lot of people who will just dig in their heels and refuse on that basis alone. This person might not even have an issue with the transgendered beyond this particular point. They might even be in support of expanded rights for transgendered people. But they still dont want to be told how to refer to them.

Its a very strange kind of mental process. People want to be compassionate and supportive of people that are social outcasts for lack of a better term, but at the same time they don't want that compassion to intrude upon their own internal perceptions and opinions. Many of them probably think something like this: "She's a full person who deserves full rights under the law and respect as a human being, but shes not a man and never actually will be since gender is determined by biology. Therefore, while I support her rights, I refuse to refer to her as anything but a woman".

These people can't see that respecting them as humans involves using the pronoun they prefer to refer to themselves. All they can see is the imposition of that.