5 Atheist Arguments Which Aren't Helping Anyone

Started by TomFoolery, January 16, 2016, 06:29:40 PM

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TomFoolery

QuoteAtheism is inevitable secular progress. Its existence is a thing society needs. However, too many atheists act like missionaries -- evangelizing at strangers who just want to live their lives, feeling and acting smugly superior because of their (non)beliefs, and insisting that a greater good justifies their asshole behavior. I would know; I'm an atheist myself, so I talk to them all the goddamn time. So it's especially frustrating when my more devoutly atheist friends don't realize that not only do a lot of their arguments fall on deaf ears, but also how in the long run, they hurt their own cause way more than they help. Here are a few examples...

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-atheist-arguments-which-arent-helping-anyone/

Interesting analysis of why a lot of atheist arguments fail to carve through the average religious individual.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Hydra009

#1
It depends up the situation  If someone argues that their holy book is literally true and infallible, then it's appropriate to point out where it's wrong.  Or if someone argues that religion fosters good morality, it's appropriate to point out reprehensible religious moral codes.

I'm also not thrilled with the tendency to buy into the stereotype of atheists as smug, in-your-face evangelists.

And I have to strongly disagree with the idea that religion as a crutch is something that should be respected:

QuoteYou have no idea how someone uses their faith. Maybe it's a comfort in the face of the infinite. Maybe it's a way of dealing with past trauma. Maybe they just like the idea that their dead loved ones are still around somewhere. As long they're not sacrificing victims to a resurrection shrine, it's not a problem.
By that logic, creationism and faith healing are not problems.  Perhaps we shouldn't set human sacrifice as the criteria that an idea has meet in order for objection to be warranted.

TomFoolery

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2016, 07:21:26 PM
It depends up the situation  If someone argues that their holy book is literally true and infallible, then it's appropriate to point out where it's wrong.
I sort of agree with the author's point on this. If someone is deluded enough to think their holy text is literal and should be interpreted that way, that's a kind of brainwashing that no logical explanation will solve. The best you can do is to make sure these kind of people don't project any kind of social or political power.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2016, 07:21:26 PMAnd I have to strongly disagree with the idea that religion as a crutch is something that should be respected:
I think it's fine for personal introspective purposes. If someone's having some serious shit going on in their lives and just wants to pray about it, fuck it, why not? If it makes them feel better, who am I to say they're dumb? In that sense, it's not incredibly different than meditation, but I see your point about it extending into other avenues such as faith healing or animal sacrifice.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Hydra009

#3
Quote from: TomFoolery on January 16, 2016, 07:33:03 PM
I sort of agree with the author's point on this. If someone is deluded enough to think their holy text is literal and should be interpreted that way, that's a kind of brainwashing that no logical explanation will solve. The best you can do is to make sure these kind of people don't project any kind of social or political power.
Well, yeah.  All the arguments in the world aren't going to do anything against a wall of faith.  But the point of these arguments isn't to dissuade dyed-in-the-wool theists, but rather to foster doubt in less close-minded theists in the audience.  And since many atheists are former theists, apparently that strategy is sometimes successful.

QuoteI think it's fine for personal introspective purposes. If someone's having some serious shit going on in their lives and just wants to pray about it, fuck it, why not? If it makes them feel better, who am I to say they're dumb?
I somewhat agree.  On one hand, one shouldn't attend a religious funeral service and declare that heaven doesn't exist.  But on the other hand, it's dangerous to let this stuff go unchallenged in the public sphere.  Seemingly innocuous beliefs like "modesty" can have some nasty repercussions down the line unless vigorously opposed.  Besides, no idea is sacrosanct.

aitm

I rarely see any of those actually being used as the spearpoint of an "argument". My most common usually is the amount of gods in the past and who determines what is a "myth", along with the very ascent of "religion" in the evolution of human culture when we have sufficient evidence of the progression of  superstition from animism to tokenism to shamanism and into whack villa. And then I get to dive into the who-doo of the voodoo of the babble, which is usually more fun.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

stromboli


aitm

They couldn't make that movie today… hell, I doubt any Mel Brooks movie could me made today without a societal uproar.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

stromboli

Quote from: aitm on January 16, 2016, 08:24:48 PM
They couldn't make that movie today… hell, I doubt any Mel Brooks movie could me made today without a societal uproar.

And may the Schwartz be with you.

Baruch

Maybe people should be assigned remedial "adulthood" ... people are too easily "hurt" and have no sense of humor.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

Really though, do you think a movie could be made today where the lead says, "freeze or I shoot the nigger"?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

TomFoolery

Quote from: aitm on January 16, 2016, 10:56:07 PM
Really though, do you think a movie could be made today where the lead says, "freeze or I shoot the nigger"?

Someone like Quentin Tarantino could probably pull it off, since people just assume he's going to put crazy shit in a film just for the sake of crazy shit, opinions and critics be damned.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

JBCuzISaidSo

Pretty damn sure the newest Tarantino, The Hateful Eight, includes in exact quote: "Freeze, or I shoot the nigger". 5 stars, btw, so much is great in this film....

Anyways. We digress!

The "average religious individual" has zero care for facts or argument unless they question their faith, which puts them in the not-average category, nullifying the posted link. Look, until you deal with a die-hard evolution denier and wish only to counter that load of shit, why are you trying at all here? They have to be already questioning their sky daddy that lives in another dimension and grants wishes only to them because they are so amazing.....do I digress again?

Point being; unless your target human already has questions, this list is moot.
It’s a strange myth that atheists have nothing to live for. It’s the opposite. We have nothing to die for. We have everything to live for.
-- Ricky Gervais

Listen, Big Deal, we've got a bigger problem here. Women always figure out the truth. Always.
--Han Solo, The Force Awakens

GSOgymrat

I have no interest in converting people to atheism. If someone's actions are harmful I will address that action in terms of consequences but I don't believe my perspective of human existence is the only perspective, or the best perspective for other people. I don't think because someone believes in God that they are wrong and need to be corrected. Even if I wanted to promote atheism I know that attacking someone's beliefs isn't the most effective way to promote change. When people feel attacked they respond with defense, when people feel pushed they push back.

gentle_dissident

I use 5, 4, and 3 all the time. I'm just not a dick about it. I'm also pretty sneaky at introducing that stuff into conversation before they realize what they're agreeing with. Religious people may have big thoughts, but they have the wrong thoughts. They're fun to play with.

Brooks and Tarantino are pandering hacks. Sorry to be a dick about it.

Hydra009

#14
I think that the biggest chink in the armor is the gap between what the believer professes to know and what is actually known.  Lots of grandiose claims with little or no backing - assumptions and opinions masquerading as objective fact.  And obviously, the process by which these conclusions were reached was unlikely a judicious deliberation of the facts.  If you can prod in this area without eliciting a defensive reaction, you might have a shot at changing theists' minds.  Otherwise, doubt is doubtful.