Author Topic: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine  (Read 3113 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2016, 10:21:23 AM »
Well, the idea that Palestine belonged to the Jews 3000 years ago is interesting.  But true or not, it doesn't mean a lot today.  Imagine the chaos that would come of redrawing maps and reestablishing ownership to the original claimants as things were thousands of years ago.  If Israel can do that, why not anyone else?  The Native Americans could claim the US, Canada, and Mexico.  Australia would be returned to the Bushmen, and on and on for every ethic group.  I would lose my home to the Chicahoo Tribe, or whatever tribe it was that camped on what is now my property at some arbitrary point in history that everyone would be in magical agreement over.

Someone posted some interesting interactive maps of the world a month ago.  They point out the constant change that has been an integral part of political borders throughout history.  More powerful countries have always claimed parts of other countries as their own, and new ownership is established.  If the Jews had never left Israel, as myth suggests they did, someone else was going to move in and claim it, but the Jews claim Israel and whatever else they want to claim as Israel still belongs to them.  And in the case of Israel ownership is being claimed on hollow Biblical authority.  Every political group, including the Jews, owns what it owns for no other reason than they own it now.  And of course, that can always change.

But the claim that God has given some land to a particular group is silly beyond imagination.  That's not how things work.  Sure, anyone can make that claim, and groups might do that, and I can hear the fundamentalists whine now:  "There is no affidavit that is more sacred than the Bible.  That is the deed of trust."  Yeah right.  Tell that to the County Clerk and Recorder.

Offline Baruch

Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2016, 10:24:12 AM »
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.  This is also why the status quo is ferociously defended.
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Offline stromboli (OP)

Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2016, 10:36:32 AM »
Historically speaking, the Egyptians weren't bad guys, and Jews didn't build the pyramids.  They may have helped build (as Exodus says) the cities in the E Delta of Egypt aka Goshen.  But princes of the desert, then or now, don't do manual labor.  Basically herdsmen vs farmers.  And Egyptians were pretty much non-racists ... if you adopted their culture and language, they didn't care what you looked like (with the possible exception of the family of the Pharaoh).  And usually Egyptians weren't even militant ... except when they needed to build a buffer in Canaan.

The Bible propaganda is like the US propaganda ... after all, the American version is based on the Biblical version.  One group of people is exceptional ... the others are losers.  Generally speaking the Biblical version is about a less powerful, less successful people however.  The Arabic empire, was basically messianic, it was Biblical people making good, in a time when the main non-Semitic empires were weak (Byzantines and Persians).  But its own success destroyed it as usually happens with empires.  Two hundred years more or less is the limit for empires.  The US is at the end of its run.

The concept of empire surprisingly enough is still valid, democracy or no. I saw a comparison some time ago between Rome and the US showing the parallels in the rise to power they shared. Up to date now I think the parallels probably still hold, largely because human motives haven't changed and all the basic components- greed, dominance over competitors- are there and likely always will be.

I also read something not long ago to the effect that the differences between hunter/gather groups and pastoral groups living in the same period showed that no substantial difference in terms of population increase and health, or other separating factors, actually existed. I understand why the transition from one to the other was made- population issues drive the need for more stable food sources and so on. But interestingly much of what we are stems from the hunter/gather mentality as the pastoral period. We developed our skills and instincts as hunters and our tribal mentality also. And I don't think honestly we've progressed much beyond that.

The lessons of Gobekli Tebe are still being learned, because the temples were built before the closest city was founded- the opposite of what was previously believed. We are still learning who we are, even after centuries of seeking answers.

Offline Baruch

Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2016, 12:26:07 PM »
The US was consciously founded on the Roman myth.  Though the Southern US was founded ... with a greater leaning toward Greece.  The Romans were more cosmopolitan and the Greeks more racist.  So how could there not be parallels.  But what is best said by a historian about Rome ... it isn't a mystery why they fell, but how they managed to avoid falling for so long ;-)  In the West, no city reached the population of Rome at the height of the Empire, until London in the 19th century.

I agree that people haven't changed much.  Early animal husbandry was a natural ... transhumance (the Lapps) or pastoral (the Bedouin) ... not a great leap from hunter/gatherer.  But farming would have been started by women ... they were the plant experts ... but once farming became important, men would have seized control of it ... particularly if you are a patriarchal nomad culture looking to settle down by invading a settled area and dominating the widows of your victims.  The problems of farming were great ... one of which is domesticated animals living with you ... not just the dog, but the goat, sheep and cow lived in your home with you ... and diseases were shared across species boundaries.  I suspect the relationship between herdsmen and animals was more healthy than that of the farmer and animals.  With the coming of excess population, and the building of cities, it has been Tower of Babel ever since.  The immediate problem for cities being trash disposal and sewage.  On sewage .. don't even ask.  Even London in 1850 didn't understand you don't drink water downstream from the sewers (though the Romans did).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 12:30:25 PM by Baruch »
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Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2016, 01:35:27 PM »
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.  This is also why the status quo is ferociously defended.

Unless you live in a country with oil under it  :97:

Offline stromboli (OP)

Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2016, 02:55:43 PM »

I agree that people haven't changed much.  Early animal husbandry was a natural ... transhumance (the Lapps) or pastoral (the Bedouin) ... not a great leap from hunter/gatherer.  But farming would have been started by women ... they were the plant experts ... but once farming became important, men would have seized control of it ... particularly if you are a patriarchal nomad culture looking to settle down by invading a settled area and dominating the widows of your victims.  The problems of farming were great ... one of which is domesticated animals living with you ... not just the dog, but the goat, sheep and cow lived in your home with you ... and diseases were shared across species boundaries.  I suspect the relationship between herdsmen and animals was more healthy than that of the farmer and animals.  With the coming of excess population, and the building of cities, it has been Tower of Babel ever since.  The immediate problem for cities being trash disposal and sewage.  On sewage .. don't even ask.  Even London in 1850 didn't understand you don't drink water downstream from the sewers (though the Romans did).

Paris and London both being prime examples of population growth outrunning the ability of the infrastructure to deal with. It was said of old you could smell Paris a day before you got there. And quite frankly we aren't doing a lot better now as far as planning.

In Utah the area between Salt Lake and Provo on the Wasatch Front corridor has seen exponential growth from tech industries and recreation after the 2002 Olympics. The growth was such that it swallowed up a good bit of what was Utah's West (semiarid) Desert. They are still playing catch up with housing because there were several issues that were not dealt with in the planning stages. Somebody thought that a semiarid region would work for drainage, without taking into account two separate water tables, from Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake. This is why you will see a mess of for sale signs, development signs, and a whole bunch of half built homes still waiting for plumbing. Much harder to sell houses where the toilets don't work. Greed outruns planning every time, apparently.

Offline Baruch

Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2016, 06:24:04 PM »
Paris and London both being prime examples of population growth outrunning the ability of the infrastructure to deal with. It was said of old you could smell Paris a day before you got there. And quite frankly we aren't doing a lot better now as far as planning.

In Utah the area between Salt Lake and Provo on the Wasatch Front corridor has seen exponential growth from tech industries and recreation after the 2002 Olympics. The growth was such that it swallowed up a good bit of what was Utah's West (semiarid) Desert. They are still playing catch up with housing because there were several issues that were not dealt with in the planning stages. Somebody thought that a semiarid region would work for drainage, without taking into account two separate water tables, from Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake. This is why you will see a mess of for sale signs, development signs, and a whole bunch of half built homes still waiting for plumbing. Much harder to sell houses where the toilets don't work. Greed outruns planning every time, apparently.

Zoning is supposed to rationally control development.  But I know of cases of cheap bribing of zoning commissions.

So when will the Mormon crickets mutate into people eaters? ;-)
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Offline stromboli (OP)

Re: Israeli Scholar Disputes Founding Myth- Israel's Claim On Palestine
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2016, 08:37:56 PM »
Btw that story about the crickets eating the crops and being saved by the seagulls is partly myth. First of all it wasn't actually crickets but Mormon crickets, which are a type of katydid. They are also cyclical and swarm every so often, which is why the pioneers were suddenly stuck with a lot of the bugs; and the crickets found themselves with a whole new food supply not there previously, the Mormon's planted crops.

Seagulls have been there for milliennia. They were attracted- surprise- by the presence of Mormon crickets. And their behavior is typical in upchucking stuff they eat (to feed their young) not atypical. All the Mormons did was happen to be there with a ready food offering when the critters swarmed. It only took place in a relatively small area, not threatening the crops wholesale. Naturally they blew it completely out of proportion and exaggerated it to make it a miracle.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 08:39:40 PM by stromboli »