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What is money?

Started by Baruch, December 18, 2015, 07:07:28 AM

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Sal1981

Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 20, 2015, 11:58:19 AM
If it works, it works. In theory a lot of things work, but in reality some of them don't.

Even in an energy-based economy, there will be some sort of currency that will be the thing we pay each other for our products and services.
Of course; energy-based currency.

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Sal1981 on December 20, 2015, 12:04:41 PM
Of course; energy-based currency.
That's my point. It doesn't matter what the money is. Money is just another word for currency. And we need money to pay for services. It doesn't matter if it's gold-based, energy-based, grain-based, etc.

Baruch

#32
Quote from: Sal1981 on December 20, 2015, 12:04:06 PM
wat

We're fast approaching a post-scarcity economy, where scarcity won't even matter, where money will be pretty much useless, but power and influence will be the only deciding factor. That's why I think we should move to another economy, preferably one where what energy you use and produce will matter.

Yes, the Singularity, where all people are replaced by robots?  I will wait and see, before I give this credence.  Basically this is where the Star Trek Next Gen society is placed ... no more scarcity, not more greed ... except does this mean everyone can have their own starship?

There has long been a unholy trinity of power, influence (fame) and money.  Money is simply quantified power.  So even if we reject Pythagoras and only see power in qualitative terms. things wouldn't be much different.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#33
Getting back on topic ... after having visited a galaxy far away and long ago ...

One can use the entire GDP as the backing of the money supply, not just energy.  Choosing one commodity over another is a policy choice, like tax law.  Choosing winners based on campaign contributions.  Solar/Wind farmers over others ... and penalizing consumers.  Not irrational, but partisan.  Why not moisture farmers like Luke's uncle and aunt?

One can used digital money now, don't need coins, don't need paper chits ... but it has to be government controlled, as it always has been.  The government will not tolerate competition.  This is why BitCoin has been rolled by the authorities (both official and criminal).  So we have a government BitCoin ... but BitCoin is another limited resource.  Let the government kind be called ShitCoin.  The Treasury issues it, not some computer algorithm, in arbitrary amounts to balance the GDP.  The problem is, this gives the government unlimited power to control trade.  You shall not buy or sell without the PKI cert of the beast.  And of course we have to have real identity on the Internet.  This is also convenient for the government.  If you are innocent, you have nothing to hide, am I right?  All join me in loving our Leader/Fuhrer.  In short ... we have converted a democratic money system into an authoritarian money system ... and the political end of political-economics still beckons.

Democratic money?  The original US Constitution, money was gold or silver, privately owned (not in Ft Knox), brought to the US Mint to be coined into official coinage for a small fee.  But we don't want democracy, we want Darth Vader.  Or at least Captain Picard (EU in Space).  We don't want to be Farengi, right?  More umax ;-)

Here is a problem for next time.  What happens when we count finance as part of the GDP, not just main street economy?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Here is the low-down on what happens in high finance ....
http://nautil.us/issue/31/stress/what-i-learned-from-losing-200-million

I don't know if this guy learned anything or not.  But he did have fun while gambling with other people's money, in a casino that makes Casino Royale look like a piggy bank.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Solomon Zorn

According to the Old Testament: money is the answer for everything.

According to the New Testament: the love of money is the root of all evil.

According to Pink Floyd: money, it's a hit, don't give me that do-goody-good bullshit.

:confuse:
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

widdershins

Money in today's America is slavery legitimized (not to trivialize actual slavery).  It is a method of ensuring servitude to the corporations.  In many places in America you can actually be arrested for not having enough money (last I heard about vagrancy laws, anyway, but my information may (hopefully) be out of date).

It doesn't matter what you've done with your life or what you've contributed to society.  If you wish to live your life without money there is only ONE way to do that legally (and not legally everywhere) and that's living on the street or in a homeless shelter.  You could work your entire life, pay all your bills, owe nothing, own you own home in the country with solar power, its own well, a large garden and a waste treatment pond so that you could be completely and utterly self-sufficient, but you STILL need money to pay the taxes on the land each and every year or everything you own becomes property of some government or another and you're back to the single option for living without money, living on the street or in a homeless shelter.  You could work your entire life for what you have and it can and will be taken in as little as a year from the last date you had money.  There is no other commodity, no other currency than money.  If you trade goods rather than buy and sell the government will find a way to tax those trades.  Hell, they're even trying to find a way to tax virtual assets in video games, something you often actually spend money on in the form of a monthly payment to play the game and have no intention of ever monetizing and could lose as soon as you stop making the payments, not to mention they often become worthless as new content is released, rendering said items obsolete and no longer desirable in an instant.

That is why I say money is slavery.  We are all slaves to the dollar.  The dollar is what ensures that we do not take 3 months off work when we feel the need, or change jobs frequently when we require more of a challenge or something more rewarding.  Money is what keeps the corporate wheels turning and it only works if we not only want it, but outright need it.  You should be able to work your entire life for the things you have earned and they should be simply yours at that point, with no chance that they can be taken from you.  But that is not the case.  The only thing which is actually yours is the money you have legally acquired, and although any new money you get is taxed, no adjustment is made for the decrease in its value over time.  This means that if you have money sitting in the bank earning interest, the interest is taxed, but inflation may outpace your earnings, especially after taxes.  So you could be paying taxes on "income" even as the actual value of your money decreases.  Money sitting in your mattress fares even worse with no chance of outpacing inflation.  So you CONSTANTLY have to earn more.  No matter how much you have, you MUST keep getting more or what you have loses value.

That's what money is, in a nutshell.  On the surface it's a way to make sure everybody contributes by having a centralized incentive for everyone to contribute.  In reality it's a way to take labor from us for our entire lives.
This sentence is a lie...

Baruch

The monetization of society, starting 2500 years ago ... is nearly complete.  Initially very few people handled money, barter was the norm.  Economic relations weren't without friction ... then as now ... there were people who refused to work ... there were people who ate too much or consumed too many resources ... there were people who were hard to follow and people who were hard to lead.  Money has mechanized the previous system of obligations, like the factory mechanized craftsmanship.

So it is a different kind of wage slavery and debt slavery ... they existed before, but weren't so quantifiable.  And chattel slavery hasn't stopped ... for young women in the sex trade and displaced poor people in sweat shops.

So the kind of freedom you speak of, was not a common thing ... rather rare except on a frontier.  The US was one big frontier at one time, but not anymore.  Every postage stamp is owned by someone already.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.