What is money?

[Sal1981]

With an energy based economy there would still be an intermediary, a kind of currency, in the form of personalized certificates, based entirely on energy production.

1: What do you use during your day? (Services, production of products, entertainment, etc)

With certificates, you would "expend" energy by turning  these in for services, products, entertainment and so on. There is no currency-to-currency trade-off because of personalized certificates.

2: How do you go about giving credit to the people that supply those services and items?

Government mandates, on a yearly basis. Basically certificates would be given on a yearly basis on how much you produced the previous year. But it doesn't have to be a yearly basis.

3: What do you do during your day to contribute to the community? (Services, production of products, entertainment, etc)

Either a service, production, entertainment or government.

4: How do you receive credit for those things?

Sorta same as in 2. You get it from an overseeing certificate-giving and regulatory body of the government.


This is very superficial, and there are a whole literature about an energy-based economy as part and parcel of Technocracy.

[Baruch]

Correct in the present tense.  Money today is backed by more goods/services than gold.  There simply isn't enough gold or velocity to produce the GDP necessary for our large population .. for various reasons.  This is why the dollar (and indirectly all other currencies) was moved from a gold basis to a petroleum basis ... and why US Presidents must dance to the tune being played by Saudi princes.  He who has the petroleum, makes the rules ... not he who has the gold.  Of course that is how things work now, not how they worked in the past ... and this current system might not recover from the next crisis.

[Sal1981]

But that's scarcity-based economy, aka valuables.

[Mike Cl]

It's pretty simple for me.  It is something I don't have much of.

[Baruch]

But that's scarcity-based economy, aka valuables.

Un-packing ...

scarcity-based economy = we have a service that is wanted/needed ... but not everyone can or is willing to provide it
scarcity-based economy = we have a raw material or product that is wanted/needed ... but not everyone can or is willing to provide it

Only on S Pacific islands, with though resources relative to population (not Easter Island) prior to the visits of the Europeans ... did we have a non-scarcity-based economy.  All the tarot, coconut and pig you can eat.  Clothing optional ;-)

All attempts outside that, to provide egalitarian economy, have failed.  Also I think that primitive democracy is implied as the political component.

[Baruch]

It's pretty simple for me.  It is something I don't have much of.

The solution is to get someone (private sector) to voluntarily give you more (work or begging) or have the government give you more.  The difference being that, the private sector has a limited amount of money to distribute, because they can't print money and the government can.

[PickelledEggs]

With an energy based economy there would still be an intermediary, a kind of currency, in the form of personalized certificates, based entirely on energy production.
With certificates, you would "expend" energy by turning  these in for services, products, entertainment and so on. There is no currency-to-currency trade-off because of personalized certificates.
Government mandates, on a yearly basis. Basically certificates would be given on a yearly basis on how much you produced the previous year. But it doesn't have to be a yearly basis.
Either a service, production, entertainment or government.
Sorta same as in 2. You get it from an overseeing certificate-giving and regulatory body of the government.


This is very superficial, and there are a whole literature about an energy-based economy as part and parcel of Technocracy.

I'm not sure you understand my post...

Try answering specifically with a personal answer. Not generalized.


For instance, I'll give another example from my own life: I went to get lunch from the corner store the other day. By trade, I am an artist, so I produce drawings and paintings and can provide a service of teaching how to draw and paint. The guy that owns the corner store provides all types of foods that are pre-packaged and some that is cooked and prepared on the spot as well as a bunch of  other misc. items such as deodorant, soap, pre-pay phones, cigarettes, etc. (I got a burger)

How do I reimburse him for my burger?
-I can't just give him artwork or teach him to draw. Similarly, if I was a mechanic, I can't give his car an oil change or fix it if the car doesn't need it... or if I was a computer tech, I can't just fix his computer if it doesn't need to be fixed.

What I can do is take a credit/certificates/whatever-you-want-to-call-it that other people give me for my time that I put in that want my services and products that I can transfer to the things I need.

Also similarly, If someone wanted to have a drawing or painting of mine, or have me teach them how to make their own artwork, I don't want them fixing my car if I don't need my car fixed. I want and need food/shelter.

[PickelledEggs]

It's pretty simple for me.  It is something I don't have much of.

I forget which comedian said this, but:
"I need a girlfriend that likes me for my money, but doesn't understand math"

[Sal1981]

An energy-based economy is simply based on the energy used and produced. It's an entirely different category than oil, gold, whathaveyou. @Baruch.

[Baruch]

In an energy based economy, we could walk around with cans of petrol/gasoline ... but I think government approved chits are less flammable ;-)

[Baruch]

An energy-based economy is simply based on the energy used and produced. It's an entirely different category than oil, gold, whathaveyou. @Baruch.

So the DoEnergy supersedes the DoTreasury ... and I can see energy used or energy produced, but not both as credits.

If we go with energy produced (and this mostly means the electric power companies and the fossil fuel companies (fuels not provided for electrical power generation)) ... then how is this non-scarcity?  All energy sources are scarce, even solar.  Or perhaps you mean an electrical power cooperative, with consumers providing excess local solar and local wind power to a collectivist power grid.

If we go with energy consumed ... I assume you mean that this is a debit not a credit.  The credit comes from the energy produced.

[PickelledEggs]

An energy-based economy is simply based on the energy used and produced. It's an entirely different category than oil, gold, whathaveyou. @Baruch.

If it works, it works. In theory a lot of things work, but in reality some of them don't.

Even in an energy-based economy, there will be some sort of currency that will be the thing we pay each other for our products and services.

[Baruch]

If it works, it works. In theory a lot of things work, but in reality some of them don't.

Even in an energy-based economy, there will be some sort of currency that will be the thing we pay each other for our products and services.

Right, but in his system ... the chits are produced according to energy production, not on political corruption.

[PickelledEggs]

Right, but in his system ... the chits are produced according to energy production, not on political corruption.

Where there's a will, there's a way. If you think anything is immune to corruption, it might be a good idea to rethink that stance.

[Sal1981]

In an energy based economy, we could walk around with cans of petrol/gasoline ... but I think government approved chits are less flammable ;-)

wat

We're fast approaching a post-scarcity economy, where scarcity won't even matter, where money will be pretty much useless, but power and influence will be the only deciding factor. That's why I think we should move to another economy, preferably one where what energy you use and produce will matter.