ITT we talk about "perfect" societies

Started by zarus tathra, March 17, 2013, 08:22:30 PM

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Plu

I doubt it. In fact, most of them probably don't even know how to be a farmer. Nor do they care to become one.

zarus tathra

Right, because gentrification doesn't exist.

Poor people can easily be convinced to leave the cities when the economic conditions do not allow it, or when incentives exist for them to move elsewhere. This is true of people in general, but doubly so for the poor.

Right now, there is no system in place to help them migrate to rural areas. If they moved there now, I do not doubt that they'd be just as fucked as people in Pol Pot's Cambodia. But if they built small cottages and gave them training and equipment and infrastructure, the story would be different.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Plu

Your seemingly ultra-expensive method of moving people to the small farms might deal with the first problem, but I don't see how it deals with the second. Most of these people already have jobs that they either like or don't care to leave.

zarus tathra

It's not expensive if it pays for itself.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

stromboli

Small scale farming is multitasking from dawn to dark. You don't plunk somebody down on a farm and let them figure it out. You need to be a welder, a carpenter, know animal husbandry, plant cultivation, crop cycles, veterinary skills, how to read the weather, mechanic and how to drive various farm equipment from tractors to big trucks. And any number of little jobs in between, not to mention not be bothered by wading in shit all day or mind the smell.

A Utopian society has never worked and it never will.

Plu

Quote from: "zarus tathra"It's not expensive if it pays for itself.

That's the word from a guy measuring in money and investments. Now try measuring in the physical resources and manpower required to get this stuff working.

zarus tathra

Biointensive farming has higher yields per acre, no chemical inputs, lower water usage, and improves the quality of the soil faster than nature does. It sounds too good to be true, but universities have done studies on it. The only thing it uses more of is labor and time, and the assumption is that we'll be using people who have all the time in the world.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

stromboli

I grew up with farmers. I worked on farms. "Biointensive" doesn't mean shit when the harvester breaks down, or hoof and mouth hits your stock. Small farms are labor intensive because, as I said, mechanization costs bucks. Labor costs bucks. Everything is funded by debts to be paid against future yields in the field or from stock production, or dairy yield or whatever. Farms go under for unpaid debt, unforeseen weather events, stock and produce price changes (often done by wall street in futures markets) and so on. A heavy yield in the wrong crop can ruin a farm as bad as a poor one. A basic tractor costs thousands of dollars and have to be kept running for decades to pay back the cost. Then throw on the cost of the accessories- plow discs, harrows, snow plows, and so on. And that is just a tractor, not to mention trucks, carts, fencing etc. Adapting to new technology costs, even if there is an eventual payback. You don't see people happily running out to start small farms on a mass basis. there is a reason.

_Xenu_

To OP:

What exactly are your aims in bringing about this new order?
Click this link once a day to feed shelter animals. Its free.

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/ars/home

aitm

As interesting as the concept is, and fun to examine, the reality, in my very humble opinion, is we would need a massive global    plague to do the job we would not do on our own. To many of "our" society is unwilling to work to the extreme that you would suggest. Small farming is very hard labor and without a very good "kill-off" we would have too many that we would probably have to find a nice way to kill off or we would simply end up with a communistic society near the unhinged stage with very pissed off workers.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

stromboli

Quote from: "aitm"As interesting as the concept is, and fun to examine, the reality, in my very humble opinion, is we would need a massive global    plague to do the job we would not do on our own. To many of "our" society is unwilling to work to the extreme that you would suggest. Small farming is very hard labor and without a very good "kill-off" we would have too many that we would probably have to find a nice way to kill off or we would simply end up with a communistic society near the unhinged stage with very pissed off workers.

Thank you. I was going to say basically the same thing. An ideal society would only work with a much reduced population, imo.

Jmpty

What happens to university professors?
???  ??

zarus tathra

A 100 sq foot plot takes 10 hours of labor to prepare and can provide all the food one person needs, assuming there are 4 harvests, like down south. After that, it only takes 30 minutes of upkeep per day to hold off the weeds. So with 2 hours of labor per day, anyone could grow enough to easily feed themselves, and then some.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Jmpty

Sounds a little like Maoism, so I will assume that the educated class will be in the fields for reeducation.
???  ??

aitm

Quote from: "zarus tathra"A 100 sq foot plot takes 10 hours of labor to prepare and can provide all the food one person needs, assuming there are 4 harvests, like down south. After that, it only takes 30 minutes of upkeep per day to hold off the weeds. So with 2 hours of labor per day, anyone could grow enough to easily feed themselves, and then some.

 :-s

you'll need to provide some back up for that. A ten by ten bedroom plot can provide all the food? How? Can it be stored without refrigeration? Salted? I need some more for this. Don't wanna come out and say BS, but it is very close.

edit;  as a gardener, I can take care of a 10 x 10 plot in about 5 minutes.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust