ITT we talk about "perfect" societies

[Bibliofagus]

Most stuff Zara mentioned in his OP is already happening. It won't lead to an ideal society, but there will be less middle men in the future, we've been seeing this happening for two decades now.  

@Zara: are you familliar with the concept of frugal innovation?

[Plu]

And our current system is running on borrowed time/money, it's based on constant inflation and government support. It's the only way we can pretend that 80% of the jobs should even exist.  

This I'm willing to believe. The problem is that we're needing less and less people to work to maintain output. The main problem is that we define "resources to live with" as "amount of useful work done", which is a definition that assumes there's always more useful work to be done than people who can do it.

And that won't be the case much longer, and we'll either have to find a new way to define how many resources people get to live with, or we're going through a revolution or other uprising soon as people start realising that there aren't any jobs and they're going to starve unless something changes.

Doesn't mean the proposed solution is a good idea though, because it's not.

[zarus tathra]

What motivation do these useless people you mention have to actually till more of the land than they need to provide their own food?

If they made enough food to sustain themselves and stayed the fuck out of everyone else's way, they'd be a billion times more helpful than they are now. But on top of that: if they don't provide for the system, who will fix the AC when it breaks? Who will fix their machines? Try farming more than 1-2 acres without machines.

The natural tendency of all living things is to make life easier for themselves and for everyone else. The only thing that can cause a living thing to stray from this formula is religion/ideology.

[Plu]

If they made enough food to sustain themselves and stayed the fuck out of everyone else's way, they'd be a billion times more helpful than they are now.

Yeah but the people in the cities would still starve to death.

The natural tendency of all living things is to make life easier for themselves and for everyone else. The only thing that can cause a living thing to stray from this formula is religion/ideology.

Bull. The natural tendency of living things it to make life easier for themselves, and if you're lucky, for what they consider their packmates, which usually stretches (if you're lucky) to the city borders. It's only an exceptional breed of person that cares for everyone else.

[AxisMundi]

Most stuff Zara mentioned in his OP is already happening. It won't lead to an ideal society, but there will be less middle men in the future, we've been seeing this happening for two decades now.  

@Zara: are you familliar with the concept of frugal innovation?

How so? The elite are living in the suburbs, leaving the cities largely to the poor. And the latter are hardly moving en mass to the farms either.

[Brian37]

Most stuff Zara mentioned in his OP is already happening. It won't lead to an ideal society, but there will be less middle men in the future, we've been seeing this happening for two decades now.  

@Zara: are you familliar with the concept of frugal innovation?

The problem at least in the west, is that sure, it can create less workers and more machines, but what happens to the economy when the bulk of the people have no money to purchase the things they make?

I have no problem with innovation that makes life easier, but it should never come at the cost of creating more poverty just so fewer people can get richer.

[zarus tathra]

Most stuff Zara mentioned in his OP is already happening. It won't lead to an ideal society, but there will be less middle men in the future, we've been seeing this happening for two decades now.  

@Zara: are you familliar with the concept of frugal innovation?

The problem at least in the west, is that sure, it can create less workers and more machines, but what happens to the economy when the bulk of the people have no money to purchase the things they make?

I have no problem with innovation that makes life easier, but it should never come at the cost of creating more poverty just so fewer people can get richer.

There's no way to prevent the latter thing from happening. An intelligent (re?)distribution system, centralized or distributed, is the only way.

To create a massive migration of the poor to the collective farms, you have to create livable spaces, which can be done fairly easily, and you have to cut off/trim urban welfare programs.

[Bibliofagus]

Most stuff Zara mentioned in his OP is already happening. It won't lead to an ideal society, but there will be less middle men in the future, we've been seeing this happening for two decades now.  

@Zara: are you familliar with the concept of frugal innovation?

How so? The elite are living in the suburbs, leaving the cities largely to the poor. And the latter are hardly moving en mass to the farms either.

Growing your own food and producing your own energy is getting more popular in my country. And it has for quite some time.

[Rejak]

the ops perfect society sounds a lot like Pol Pots vision for Cambodia. If I remember right that didn't turn out so well

[zarus tathra]

That's because he didn't have the expertise to make it work. The US isn't the same as Cambodia in terms of infrastructure and agricultural know-how.

If wireless internet used the frequencies that are now reserved for radio and TV, we'd all have free Internet that broadcasts as far as 3g and can go through walls and hills. This would make all other forms of communication technology obsolete. The FCC even has a plan to open source some of the frequencies freed up by the move from analog to digital TV broadcasts. So the people of the countryside would have even more entertainment and communications than people of the city do now.

[Bibliofagus]

Most stuff Zara mentioned in his OP is already happening. It won't lead to an ideal society, but there will be less middle men in the future, we've been seeing this happening for two decades now.  

@Zara: are you familliar with the concept of frugal innovation?

The problem at least in the west, is that sure, it can create less workers and more machines, but what happens to the economy when the bulk of the people have no money to purchase the things they make?

It´ll adjust. One thing is sure, the economy will never dissapear as long as people are around.

I have no problem with innovation that makes life easier, but it should never come at the cost of creating more poverty just so fewer people can get richer.

Emphasis added in my original response.

Look, I´m not saying it´ll be an ideal society, but this stuff is actually happening. Simple workers are getting access to more and more sophisticated tech... and they put it to use. This will impact the way society is organized.

[Rejak]

If wireless internet used the frequencies that are now reserved for radio and TV, we'd all have free Internet that broadcasts as far as 3g and can go through walls and hills. This would make all other forms of communication technology obsolete. The FCC even has a plan to open source some of the frequencies freed up by the move from analog to digital TV broadcasts. So the people of the countryside would have even more entertainment and communications than people of the city do now

 I doubt that all those poor and useless people will move out of the city and try to eek out a living on 2-3 acres or even 15 acres just to get a better internet connection. I doubt that your upper class folks will all want to live like monks either. I think you will have to use a lot of force to make this happen. Maybe kill off a third or a half of the population of the country and the rest will fall in line.  You don't want to move out to the country we'll kill you . A perfect society indeed

[stromboli]

There have been any number of attempts at Utopian societies over centuries. Any around now? Call me a cynic, but I don't see a scenario where any society can agree enough to create one. countries like Sweden or Denmark come close, and if you're looking for a model, start there. But good luck. I still don't see it as feasible.

[_Xenu_]

We are getting a bit closer to a post scarcity society, at least for smaller goods. We reached it information wise years ago with the advent of home broadband. 3D printing is going to bring psychical objects into the same realm as file sharing.

[zarus tathra]

I doubt that all those poor and useless people will move out of the city and try to eek out a living on 2-3 acres or even 15 acres just to get a better internet connection.

They'll do it for a better, more steady food supply. The farms will be the new welfare program.

I doubt that your upper class folks will all want to live like monks either.

Fair nuff, you either help the poor or you hurt the rich. It's very difficult to do both, try as the leftists might.