ITT we talk about "perfect" societies

[zarus tathra]

Don't just say "liberal" or "libertarian" or whatever, be specific.

There will be a basically two-tiered society.

The "lower" class would be that of people living on small 10-15 acre plots of land farming biointensively. What'll happen is that people will get machines and 2-3 acres for subsistence, and the rest of their land would be used for feeding the diets of city dwellers.

The "upper" class would consist of scientists and technologists living in cities. La boheme would reside here, too. On the outskirts of the cities, life would be mostly uncontrolled, but the central city will be like a giant monastery, one that does not even allow alcohol.

Most people in the "middle" class of today's society, the legions of shopkeepers and office workers and other white collar parasites, would be forced out into the countrysides to till the soil and live productive lives free of unwanted social interaction. They'll get all the entertainment and information services that are available today. They'll even be able to visit the cities, they just probably won't be able to live in them.

[Colanth]

Not liberal, not libertarian, but I could get rich selling what you're smoking.

[zarus tathra]

You could get rich selling technocracy? Then there is hope, after all.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

The nerd wet dream.. Who will do the laundry from the massive wet dream when you wake up?

[stromboli]

The society you describe is very similar to the one my Mormon brother envisioned as the Millennial existence. There will never be an ideal society because there are so many versions of what is ideal.

[zarus tathra]

Some general principles can be derived, though. Such as keeping useless fools at arm's length, which is what the farms are for. The useless eaters have to go somewhere, after all. It may as well be a place where they can actually do something.

Then again, the "centers of power" really don't have to be physical. They can very easily be online communities.

[Plu]

What motivation do these useless people you mention have to actually till more of the land than they need to provide their own food? Also, wouldn't large amounts of small farms be massively inefficient when the it comes to producing food? Also are you sure all the people suddenly relegated to farming duty are going to consider this deal  'ideal society' as well?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

And which side of the divide would you be on?

When reading your description, I just think 'hunger games'.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

What motivation do these useless people you mention have to actually till more of the land than they need to provide their own food? Also, wouldn't large amounts of small farms be massively inefficient when the it comes to producing food? Also are you sure all the people suddenly relegated to farming duty are going to consider this deal  'ideal society' as well?

Your last sentence Is spot on. Utopian societies can be an society that works to 100% efficiencyminnthe theoretical model to which it is forwarded. You can have a utopian democracy of pure equal rights, or you can have a utopian dictatorship and so on.

The key point is that this kind of state would be an evolved platform (probably wouldn't even be a state as we know it), and one living within the boundaries of that system wouldn't even recognize it as utopian. It would just 'be'.

Forcing, or delegating, contradicts that evolved process.

[NitzWalsh]

I'd join the rebellion in that society. Get me some armed UAV's and fly them through the cities.

[zarus tathra]

I remember reading that small scale farming is more efficient per acre than large scale farming, it's just less efficient on a time input basis.

And our current system is running on borrowed time/money, it's based on constant inflation and government support. It's the only way we can pretend that 80% of the jobs should even exist. Remove the Fed,, and the small scale farms will e look like utopia.

Any system that arises to rebuild the current one will be fascist in every important sense, so if I help put down the "reconstruction" effort, I'll be an anti-fascist force. Which isn't to imply that our system isn't already fascist.

The farms will have to come first, or at least co-evolve with the technocrats.

[Wheatthins]

Near absolute enlightened monarchy with a few constitutional limits for things like free speech, privacy, due process, and reasonable government transparency.  (protected by a fairly powerful constitutional court)  Most day to day tasks run by highly educated bureaucratic class.  The ruling monarch is not born, but is actually a clone that is raised by the current monarch as his own child.

[AxisMundi]

Don't just say "liberal" or "libertarian" or whatever, be specific.

There will be a basically two-tiered society.

The "lower" class would be that of people living on small 10-15 acre plots of land farming biointensively. What'll happen is that people will get machines and 2-3 acres for subsistence, and the rest of their land would be used for feeding the diets of city dwellers.

The "upper" class would consist of scientists and technologists living in cities. La boheme would reside here, too. On the outskirts of the cities, life would be mostly uncontrolled, but the central city will be like a giant monastery, one that does not even allow alcohol.

Most people in the "middle" class of today's society, the legions of shopkeepers and office workers and other white collar parasites, would be forced out into the countrysides to till the soil and live productive lives free of unwanted social interaction. They'll get all the entertainment and information services that are available today. They'll even be able to visit the cities, they just probably won't be able to live in them.

Wow, just wow. So much wrong, where to begin.

Firstly, there is no ideal of basic rights in your "vision", a rather Orwellian one to be frank. Reminds me strongly of both The Animal Farm and 1984 as well.

Secondly, this rather communistic view works fine in small scale operations, such as "The Farm" in Tennessee, or the "Hog Farm" in California as well. However, such communes do not work well on a large scale. They exist solely on the cooperative effort of everyone involved. This "two tier" society you propose will only lead to those of privilege and those of poverty, the latter who will always want what the other has. Such a society would only breed contempt and subterfuge, and require an enormous police state to maintain. To be frank, this reminds me very strongly of socialist communism, an already failed experiment.

Lastly, human beings have always had some form of authority, ie government. Whether its our current Constitutional Republic here in the US, or an elders council as found among ancient peoples. Human beings are not machines, we are individuals, with ideals and opinions that vary widely, even with ideologies and societies as well. This is why a form of g'ment, whatever it may be, is crucial, critical, even natural for us. Even the communes mentioned above have some form of governing authority within the group.

Sorry, but I do not see this working in any form in today's society, not without heavy military intervention and forced redistribution of wealth and location, followed not only by an intrusive police state but civil wars and resistance movements as well.

[SilentFutility]

Not liberal, not libertarian, but I could get rich selling what you're smoking.

The nerd wet dream.. Who will do the laundry from the massive wet dream when you wake up?

Disagreeing with the OP's is one thing, but as his post is properly-worded, he's willing to elaborate on things, he isn't being argumentative and he doesn't spam the forum with silly threads, in fact, he generally creates interesting ones, he at least deserves proper replies in my opnion.

I am also guilty of giving sarcastic or silly replies to spammers/idiots/trolls etc. but the OP isn't one of these.

[Brian37]

There has never been or ever will be any "perfect" society, because "perfect" is a bullshit word and is as hollow as the logic of people who ascribe to it as ever being possible.