Author Topic: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church  (Read 1816 times)

Offline stromboli (OP)

Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« on: November 10, 2015, 08:05:41 PM »
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/10/this-saturday-there-will-be-a-mass-resignation-from-mormonism-in-salt-lake-city/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/06/new-mormon-church-policy-will-punish-children-of-same-sex-couples-unless-they-disavow-parents/

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3144035-155/new-mormon-policy-makes-apostates-of?fullpage=1

Quote
Following the Mormon Church’s decision to declare gays and lesbians in committed relationships “apostates” and refusing to bless/confirm/ordain kids unless they disavow their gay parents, there’s been a huge backlash from practicing Mormons.
Now, there are plans for a mass resignation this Saturday:



Quote
[The plan is to] Walk/ March together around Temple square and deposit our letters in a mail box near the church office… bring just a personal letter to the church about why you resigned. All those simply in support are of course welcome too. We will listen to 4-5 [testimonials]/ speakers at the park while people who need to get their letters together.

A lawyer on site and affiliated with the event will be offering advice to make sure our resignations are processed immediately and without ward leader intervention.
Already, more than 800 people have said they’re attending (though not all of them will be resigning).
If you’re a Mormon and you need information on how to resign from the Church, here’s a helpful graphic:


A little background:

3 days ago, a new edition to the Church's leadership handbook-which is ostensibly private and not available to the public- was leaked by an insider to John Dehlin, a man who was excommunicated several months ago for his stand in support of gay members. Dehlin posted the information on his website and on r/exmormon. As you may be aware, the church has been stridently anti gay, not against members- as long as they keep their mouth shut- but against gay marriage. Prop. 8 in California was largely fueled by the church. The decision by SCOTUS for
Obergefell Vs Hodges
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges

the result was a direct kick in the nuts to the Mormon church for several reasons.

The Mormon church believes that worthy members can be married in a Mormon temple for time and all eternity, taking a Celestial wife (and also other wives, vis a vis polyandry) after their deaths. Most people don't know that men can be sealed in the temple to other wives after the death of their wives, other wives' husbands, etc.. The SCOTUS decision flies directly in the face of their belief because the church does not recognize gay marriage as either  legitimate or righteous. It leads to several problems: BYU, the church school, does not allow gay married people to inhabit their married dorms, in direct conflict to the SCOTUS decision.

There is also an issue with men who were married to women and had children, then leaving and finding a gay partner. What the church did was basically say that gay relations were not allowed by the church but went further: children who are members are normally baptized at age 8, pretty much automatically. The church now says that children of gays cannot be baptized until age 18- adulthood- and ONLY if they disavow their parents' gay relationship.

The firestorm that resulted was first of all because the church did it in secret and it got leaked, and they recently had their semi annual conference and made no mention of it. It also attacks children, which is a direct contradiction to the church's 2nd Article of Faith:

Quote
2 "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression."

In effect judging the child for the actions of the parents.

The shit hit the fan worldwide in the LDS Church. I am aware of two entire families that quit the church in California, a choir director a Bishop and others have quit the church.

Presently on https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon

There is a lawyer who has been helping people for free to submit resignations- over the last few weeks he as handled something like 1400 requests, and other lawyers have kicked in to help out.

How bad is this? Mormonism rates apostates as less worthy than murderers thieves and rapists.Children of gay people have been labeled as unworthy in a most shocking and brutal way.

I left the church 24 years ago this February. Needless to say I am pleased. If you want to see some outrage, visit r/exmormon for a dose.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 08:07:36 PM by stromboli »

Offline TomFoolery

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 08:40:13 PM »
I thought the spiritual penalties for quitting the church were supposed to be quite steep.

So what does it say about the steadfastness of someone's religion that they're willing to give up an eternity in the celestial kingdom over a social issue? Either the social issue is really important, or the celestial kingdom isn't.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Offline peacewithoutgod

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 09:06:21 PM »
I thought the spiritual penalties for quitting the church were supposed to be quite steep.

So what does it say about the steadfastness of someone's religion that they're willing to give up an eternity in the celestial kingdom over a social issue? Either the social issue is really important, or the celestial kingdom isn't.
My issue with churches in general has been that people and their dignity have never been held in high enough regard, and their highest priority is an obvious pyramid scheme. They had little to keep me there other than the company of utter morons and empty threats against apostates, therefore my leaving became an obvious no-brainer.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Offline stromboli (OP)

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 09:12:57 PM »
I thought the spiritual penalties for quitting the church were supposed to be quite steep.

So what does it say about the steadfastness of someone's religion that they're willing to give up an eternity in the celestial kingdom over a social issue? Either the social issue is really important, or the celestial kingdom isn't.

First of all if it is bullshit then it doesn't matter, and you only see one small part of the whole picture. I gave up- according to the church- priesthoods, principalities, multiple-potentially millions- of wives, ownership of a planet and a few other niceties they proclaim with their belief. It is about a lot more than a social issue. Mormonism is a cult.

 So you are saying I spent 2 years of study and denied not only my religion but my family lineage and the shunning by all my family, in laws and friends over trivial shit? Wow I must be really shallow.

Offline peacewithoutgod

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 10:19:26 PM »
Who would have thought so many Mormons would find within them the spine that the Catholics never did? Obviously the stupid hard-line policy of the LDS helped push them out, but at a far greater price, understanding how cults work. My parents quit the pope of their generation, only to be wooed back by the chameleon who replaced him, my sister followed just so that she could marry a Catholic, and it wrenches my gut whenever I think of them for that. RCC has been losing people, but never so dramatically as this LDS event. Too many Catholics cling desparately to the delusion that they can fix RCC, and make people who really don't care about anyone other than No. 1 respond to their demands to welcome their gays, and stop covering up all the child rapes and numerous other shameful abuses while their churches are closed to funnel more money than ever into expanding Vatican palaces. I'm really happy that Mormons have found within them the good sense to see that a group which doesn't work for them isn't worth staying with, and I hope a lot more follow through with this move, permanently!
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 11:30:36 PM »
I love it when religious folks have internal strife.  It just makes them that much weaker and lessens their grip on society.  I look forward to a future where these types of people are organized into small fringe groups rather than large and powerful organizations.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:02:00 AM by Hydra009 »

Offline TomFoolery

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 10:18:53 AM »
First of all if it is bullshit then it doesn't matter, and you only see one small part of the whole picture. I gave up- according to the church- priesthoods, principalities, multiple-potentially millions- of wives, ownership of a planet and a few other niceties they proclaim with their belief. It is about a lot more than a social issue. Mormonism is a cult.
What I'm saying if someone truly believes in all that stuff and then all of a sudden gay people aren't allowed and everyone says "Oh, now I don't believe anymore because that's not nice to exclude gays and their children" I'm saying Mormonism isn't that powerful of a cult for those people. You started this topic about mass resignation in response to the treatment of same sex couples, and I'm saying I think the religion is pretty weak if people care more about social justice than Heaven.

So you are saying I spent 2 years of study and denied not only my religion but my family lineage and the shunning by all my family, in laws and friends over trivial shit? Wow I must be really shallow.
I'm not saying the social issue is trivial. I'm not saying you giving up your family was trivial. I'm saying Mormonism is trivial.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Offline stromboli (OP)

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 10:43:36 AM »
Oh no its just a trivial social issue. That whole Utah being the highest suicide rate among LGBT and teens in general is beside the point. Marginalizing an entire group of people and declaring them not even worthy of consideration is beside the point. Calls to Utah LGBT suicide hot lines spiking after the disclosure of the changes is beside the point.

Mormonism is a cult. It is with you 24/7, from being literally monitored daily by classmates in school, interviewing teenage boys and girls in a closed office and asking them pointed questions about their sexuality, having roommates at BYU and other church schools rat you out if you say anything not considered churchy or masturbating or drinking coffee. Yes, drinking coffee can get you called into the Bishop's office, have your temple recommend- the holy "look how good I am" card- revoked. It's a cult.

No its just a trivial social issue. Carry on.

Offline TomFoolery

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 11:08:58 AM »
No its just a trivial social issue. Carry on.

I don't know how many times I have to say IT'S NOT A TRIVIAL SOCIAL ISSUE, but I would think it would be to someone when they're comparing a social issue, ANY social issue, against an eternity in a Heaven that they sincerely believed in. "Trivial" is relative. I'm saying it's a "trivial social issue" from a devout Mormon's point of view, not from a homosexual's point of view.

And when I think of cults, I think of people needing interventions on behalf of family members to get out of them, not finding out that gay people suddenly are officially excluded and deciding to quit it the same day. I'm not saying Mormonism doesn't have a powerful force over many people's lives, but for the people quitting over this "social issue," maybe it wasn't as strong for them.

Oh, and to quote myself earlier
I'm not saying the social issue is trivial.

And just to clarify again, IT'S NOT A TRIVIAL SOCIAL ISSUE.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 11:12:16 AM by TomFoolery »
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 11:13:36 AM »
Mormonism, like Scientology, comes off to me as a cult because it appears insular and designed around secrecy. Mormonism also appears to encourage compliance and conformity rather than inquiry. If blatant bigotry towards gay people is the issues that makes people reconsider Mormonism then perhaps all the suffering their gay members have experienced wasn't for nothing.

Offline stromboli (OP)

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 12:10:52 PM »
I don't know how many times I have to say IT'S NOT A TRIVIAL SOCIAL ISSUE, but I would think it would be to someone when they're comparing a social issue, ANY social issue, against an eternity in a Heaven that they sincerely believed in. "Trivial" is relative. I'm saying it's a "trivial social issue" from a devout Mormon's point of view, not from a homosexual's point of view.

And when I think of cults, I think of people needing interventions on behalf of family members to get out of them, not finding out that gay people suddenly are officially excluded and deciding to quit it the same day. I'm not saying Mormonism doesn't have a powerful force over many people's lives, but for the people quitting over this "social issue," maybe it wasn't as strong for them.

Oh, and to quote myself earlier
And just to clarify again, IT'S NOT A TRIVIAL SOCIAL ISSUE.

Now you know how it feels to be misinterpreted. Think about that next time you label me an anti feminist bigot. And yes, you did.

Offline aitm

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 01:40:07 PM »
 :sign0004: :sign0004:
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Atheon

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 01:58:19 PM »
Fewer mormons is a good thing.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 03:13:16 PM »
They're probably just butthurt about Salt Lake City's new lesbian mayor. I went over to /r/exmormon and this whole thing seems to be stirring quite an amusing shitstorm. I'll keep an eye on things to see if the Mormon leadership backs off.
Click this link once a day to feed shelter animals. Its free.

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/ars/home

Offline peacewithoutgod

Re: Mass Resignation Of The Mormon Church
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 03:39:02 PM »
What I'm saying if someone truly believes in all that stuff and then all of a sudden gay people aren't allowed and everyone says "Oh, now I don't believe anymore because that's not nice to exclude gays and their children" I'm saying Mormonism isn't that powerful of a cult for those people. You started this topic about mass resignation in response to the treatment of same sex couples, and I'm saying I think the religion is pretty weak if people care more about social justice than Heaven.
I'm not saying the social issue is trivial. I'm not saying you giving up your family was trivial. I'm saying Mormonism is trivial.
Mormonism is stupid, but no stupidity which has been capable of dominating a large city and ruling families accross the world for a century and a half is in any way "trivial", and I really have to wonder what sort of person could say that! Agreed that the ideas which Mormonism teaches are weak, but then so are all religious ideas, and I don't think it would really be worth trying to compare them even if that were possible.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:41:01 PM by peacewithoutgod »
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.