Author Topic: God exists because God exists  (Read 7585 times)

Offline aitm

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 07:59:30 PM »
There are plenty of Christian schools (both primary, secondary and post secondary) that would probably propose such an assignment.

Frankly I doubt that, not to be obnoxious, but the last thing Christian schools, teachers or parents want is their child being exposed to an atheist. Kinda like asking your kid to go on a date with a gay person to see what its like.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 08:03:40 PM »
I have several questions:

Do you think that any productive discussion with having a debate?
Are you open to changing your mind, and what would you accept?
Do you have evidence that meets the standard of evidence that is required to change any one of our minds?

If not, then it's just a waste of time, because there's nothing you can put forward that has not been done so before and dismissed, and there's nothing we could tell you that you would not similarly dismiss. There is no productive debate to be had. The only thing that you would get is the opportunity to tell your teacher whatever how the debate went down, and all we get is an extra thread in our Formal Debates forum. You don't need a crystal ball to predict the obvious.

Now, we could make the debate interesting. For instance, one of us could try to argue the case for the existence of Odin, while you try to argue against same. It would be something new and interesting for once.
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Offline TomFoolery

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2015, 08:22:19 PM »
Frankly I doubt that, not to be obnoxious, but the last thing Christian schools, teachers or parents want is their child being exposed to an atheist. Kinda like asking your kid to go on a date with a gay person to see what its like.

Then explain to me Christian missionary programs? Or am I just misunderstanding the idea of sending Christians in droves all over the globe to encounter (and convert) people of various religious beliefs? Not all people who have been blinded by Christian faith their whole lives meet an atheist and have their worldview rocked: it seems to me that many find it further solidifies their faith.

Many Christian colleges offer classes in philosophical worldviews (even if they are taught from a Christian perspective).
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2015, 08:29:59 PM »
Then explain to me Christian missionary programs? Or am I just misunderstanding the idea of sending Christians in droves all over the globe to encounter (and convert) people of various religious beliefs? Not all people who have been blinded by Christian faith their whole lives meet an atheist and have their worldview rocked: it seems to me that many find it further solidifies their faith.

Many Christian colleges offer classes in philosophical worldviews (even if they are taught from a Christian perspective).

Missionaries sent to countries with a secular population do poorly. The LDS (Mormon) church has downsized and closed several stakes or wards in countries like Sweden, France,  Denmark and Japan. Their best efforts are among primarily poorly educated and superstitious people in 3rd world countries. They don't convert atheists, they convert mostly people from other Christian sects, Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam.

European countries are becoming more secular, not more religious.

Offline aitm

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2015, 08:52:53 PM »
Not all people who have been blinded by Christian faith their whole lives meet an atheist and have their worldview rocked: 

Adults? Yes. Sending your kids to seek out atheists? I would not think so. But hey, its possible, just never actually met a real person who had a "real" assignment from "school". 

People send their kids to sunday school because they are too lazy or too ignorant to teach them about their own religion. They send their kids to "christian" schools mainly to avoid them dark skinned people who listen to rap and cuss in school and in general are not very proper. Secondly, they think its a lot safer then public schools and due to the inherent lack of riffraff the classes are more orderly and therefore somewhat more likely to get a better education.

Its not really about religion for most of them. But non-the-less, I would like to see a parent okay a school assignment where your child is charged with engaging atheists for a spirited debate. Maybe, but I think not.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline TomFoolery

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2015, 10:05:15 PM »
Missionaries sent to countries with a secular population do poorly.

Not saying they don't do poorly, but the concept of asking people to engage communities vastly different than their own for Jesus isn't a completely alien concept.

Adults? Yes. Sending your kids to seek out atheists? I would not think so. But hey, its possible, just never actually met a real person who had a "real" assignment from "school". 
Having encountered that "total Christian worldview lifestyle", it's actually not that crazy. Evangelicals send their kids out there to confront abortion supporters, which is decidedly more scary than confronting atheists. They send them on mission trips. I even once had a little boy hand me a Bible tract at a grocery store. Also, watch the documentary Jesus Camp. The thought that young children are being groomed to confront challenges to the Christian faith isn't that weird. And speaking of kids...

Its not really about religion for most of them. But non-the-less, I would like to see a parent okay a school assignment where your child is charged with engaging atheists for a spirited debate. Maybe, but I think not.

Did the OP declare he or she was a child in a public school? I used to work next to Dallas Baptist University and there were a lot of koolaid drinkers there happy to engage in debates for Our Lord and Savior. There are deeply Christian colleges all around the country (Liberty University, Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University...) that have no issue putting forth a confrontational Christian agenda.

That being said, I'm not saying this person isn't lying, but it seems as though everyone is making a lot of assumptions about him or her based on the notion that they had an assignment given to them. My freshman philosophy class had an assignment every week where I was supposed to ask people about sophists or Marxists or the nature of the human soul or whatever the topic was that week. Truthfully I just made responses up rather than bother people with abstract metaphysics and ethics, but the assignment was real enough.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Offline Baruch

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2015, 10:34:02 PM »
Maybe the OP simply doesn't have an actual atheist to talk to face to face.  That would work best for any assignment.  Trolling the Internets is a second choice.
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Offline peacewithoutgod

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2015, 01:50:34 AM »
Not saying they don't do poorly, but the concept of asking people to engage communities vastly different than their own for Jesus isn't a completely alien concept.
Having encountered that "total Christian worldview lifestyle", it's actually not that crazy. Evangelicals send their kids out there to confront abortion supporters, which is decidedly more scary than confronting atheists. They send them on mission trips. I even once had a little boy hand me a Bible tract at a grocery store. Also, watch the documentary Jesus Camp. The thought that young children are being groomed to confront challenges to the Christian faith isn't that weird. And speaking of kids...

Did the OP declare he or she was a child in a public school? I used to work next to Dallas Baptist University and there were a lot of koolaid drinkers there happy to engage in debates for Our Lord and Savior. There are deeply Christian colleges all around the country (Liberty University, Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University...) that have no issue putting forth a confrontational Christian agenda.

That being said, I'm not saying this person isn't lying, but it seems as though everyone is making a lot of assumptions about him or her based on the notion that they had an assignment given to them. My freshman philosophy class had an assignment every week where I was supposed to ask people about sophists or Marxists or the nature of the human soul or whatever the topic was that week. Truthfully I just made responses up rather than bother people with abstract metaphysics and ethics, but the assignment was real enough.
Do you understand why the Xtians have made atheists the most hated persons in America, to be trusted even less than rapists? It's because they cannot manipulate us, they cannot change us, and that just really scares the be...er, the bejesus out of them. Missionaries don't go on missions to work the atheist groups, whom they steer clear of with much dread - they go to the most superstitious peoples and woo them over to their own superstition. Therefore, it's not surprising that the Xtians who are dumb enough to troll around here usually have profound learning disabilities, or are unusually immature.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Offline TomFoolery

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2015, 08:25:12 AM »
Do you understand why the Xtians have made atheists the most hated persons in America, to be trusted even less than rapists?
I had no idea atheists were the most hated people in America and more hated than rapists. Is this literal, or an attempt at hyperbole?

It's because they cannot manipulate us, they cannot change us, and that just really scares the be...er, the bejesus out of them.
I think your opinion of the atheist resolve is... misguided.

Missionaries don't go on missions to work the atheist groups, whom they steer clear of with much dread - they go to the most superstitious peoples and woo them over to their own superstition.
Christians host mission trips all over the world, often in impoverished areas where there are already nominal Christians but also include Buddhists, Hindus and even the nonreligious. In attempting to make fun of Christian missionaries, all you're really doing is making fun of a large part of the world's population they witness to that doesn't really deserve your ridicule. Not all poor people practice voodoo and worship turtles for fuck's sake.

Therefore, it's not surprising that the Xtians who are dumb enough to troll around here usually have profound learning disabilities, or are unusually immature.
In conclusion, I had no idea you knew so much about how all Christians view all atheists, or knew so much about the demographics of the Christians that came to these forums.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Offline aitm

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2015, 08:36:05 AM »
Well, I can only speak of my history, I have seen at the very least several hundred so called students come into atheist forums or chats under the "guise" of a school "assignment", this is directly opposite of any real life interaction with the many teachers, educators and obviously students  I have met over the last 45 ish years of awareness of such activity where I have never met a single one on said "assignment" or given said assignment. But hey, I suppose maybe one somewhere.....
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2015, 11:42:44 AM »
I had no idea atheists were the most hated people in America and more hated than rapists. Is this literal, or an attempt at hyperbole?

No hyperbole needed, unfortunately:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1

There are tons of other links out there which prove the same thing, just another quick example:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/in-atheists-we-distrust/

And to present a complete picture, the most recent polls show that atheists have actually gained ground... they are now more desirable than a Socialist for President:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/25/living/atheist-president-gallup/

Offline Green Bottle

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2015, 11:52:47 AM »
So when's the  ''debate'' startin...?

God doesnt exist, but if he did id tell him to ''Fuck Off''

Offline peacewithoutgod

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2015, 03:31:44 PM »
I had no idea atheists were the most hated people in America and more hated than rapists. Is this literal, or an attempt at hyperbole?
It's data from a poll within the last two years. Honestly, I thought everyone who frequents this community was aware of it!
I think your opinion of the atheist resolve is... misguided.
Ok, but what informs your opinion on that? Can you specify conversion or reconversion cases which aren't obvious shill stories? Shill-spotting is like a taxonomic excercise, but performed on the language which a person uses, and I've never seen any make this claim of "former atheism" without making it all too obvious that he never really understood atheism for what it is. For example, it sure isn't synonymous with being an irresponsible hedonist. Just because you stop going to church, that doesn't make you an atheist (**GROAN**).

Christians host mission trips all over the world, often in impoverished areas where there are already nominal Christians but also include Buddhists, Hindus and even the nonreligious. In attempting to make fun of Christian missionaries, all you're really doing is making fun of a large part of the world's population they witness to that doesn't really deserve your ridicule. Not all poor people practice voodoo and worship turtles for fuck's sake.
In conclusion, I had no idea you knew so much about how all Christians view all atheists, or knew so much about the demographics of the Christians that came to these forums.
Wow, that's a heady conclusion to jump to on my opinion of the people missionaries go to, based on what I said about missionaries, and not those people!

On the missionaries, their operating principles do in fact steer them to the more superstitious peoples of the world, wherever they may be - and a logical conclusion for why is that they are the easiest to convert! They really don't have to leave our country to find godless people at all, but they can keep themselves in business by going to poorer countries and setting up conversion camps.

On the people who they convert (not the people or their country as a whole): how much do you know about the superstitions of Africa and Papa New Ginea? I haven't actually been to either place, but articles from reliable sources describe some horrifically scary stuff they believe in, and this AFTER the missionaries came! Witch trials are going on right now in these countries against young girls, every time somebody gets sick, and the convicted "witches" are put to death by mob justice. Such executions have become more frequent in recent decades, not less - go google it. People who practice this terror have taken a very strict, literal interpretation of what they've found in their bibles, and they don't have the Western understanding of how we cherry-pick our interpretations. The lesson here is that introducing into a culture concepts (not just ideas) which they don't understand can be a very dangerous action.

But there's much, much more to the problem which makes them easy prey for Xtian missionaries, there is the complication of cultures with multiple religious ideas co-mingled to the point that large communities are open to anything because there are few things they have had good reason to reject. Why not, when you never worshiped a "jealous" god? Their cities are full of practicing Xtians who co-mingle in voodoo practices, as did Europe with its pagan practices for centuries after converting to Xtianity. So, how does this present a problem? Only that every African animal with large tusks is in danger of going extinct because they believe tusks give them virility, or something like that (I'll bet you had all the blame pinned on trophy hunters - I'm not defending them, but it's much more the black market for dudes who think it will cure a limp dick). Xtians among them. Oh, and don't get me started on how they deal with AIDS, and just how helpful Xtian ideas have not been with that! Of course not everyone there is that stupid, but I'm afraid you've no idea just how much stupidity rules these cultures.

There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2015, 06:03:02 PM »
Considering the kind of God depicted in their Bible, I'm extremely relieved that their God doesn't exist! What it would be like to live under such a petulant godchild is too frightening to contemplate. I sometimes wish there really was a hell, so those who thought up the idea could go there.

:angry:
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline aitm

Re: God exists because God exists
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2015, 07:01:52 PM »
Considering the kind of God depicted in their Bible, I'm extremely relieved that their God doesn't exist!

Boy howdy, could you imagine a life where a gods face juts out of the occasional cloud and sends lightning, pestilence, drought and hordes of locusts?  Holy shit, what kind of love would one give that eh?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust