News:

Welcome to our site!

Main Menu

Democratic debates

Started by AllPurposeAtheist, October 13, 2015, 11:51:21 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

SGOS

Quote from: TomFoolery on October 19, 2015, 08:21:37 AM
I imagine if Bernie is elected he runs a huge risk of going the way of Obama in ending up with a split Congress or entirely Republican-controlled Congress and not being able to fulfill anything on his platform.


I'm pretty sure Obama's problems are the new paradigm in American politics.  There isn't anything Obama did that brought this on himself.  He's not a liberal who needs to be stopped.  I don't think it's because he's black.  The Republicans have just found a new tactic that works.  It's also influenced by the Tea Party candidates that have been elected.  Mostly the Republicans believe they are onto a winning strategy with obstructionism.  Obstructionism has always been a political strategy, but the Republicans have just taken it up a notch or two or four.  And conservatives apparently think so too.

Mermaid

Quote from: TomFoolery on October 19, 2015, 08:21:37 AM
I imagine if Bernie is elected he runs a huge risk of going the way of Obama in ending up with a split Congress or entirely Republican-controlled Congress and not being able to fulfill anything on his platform.

Exactly.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

TomFoolery

How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Jason Harvestdancer

Quote from: Mermaid on October 19, 2015, 08:08:47 AM
Sanders says all the right things. I am just not familiar enough with him to trust that he can deliver. I think this is what it boils down to. It is not easy to distinguish Clinton from Obama, and I am a very big fan of Obama, especially now, entering his lame duck year.

I am planning to watch carefully and keep my mind open, my choice will likely shake out of the pack in the next 6 or so months. But meanwhile, it's Clinton.

Considering how important foreign policy is to me, and how Obama's foreign policy has been Bush's foreign policy, and how Hillary's foreign policy is going to make Bush-Obama look lame, I cannot understand anyone saying "I like Obama so much that I love Hillary" without also saying "I like it when foreigners die."
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

mauricio

 This logic of voting for the same old reptilian overlord you do not like just so the wrong one does not the get the throne is fucking disgusting. You are literally perpetuating the system that fucks you over . I simply vote for however I think is the best choice (which usually boils down to however opposes the reptilians) fuck everything else after that. Ultimately the people get what they deserve (and with that mindset it's obvious why they do) but I will not be giving them my approval by willfully voting for a disgusting reptile. Ultimately nothing much changes, regardless of who is at the helm he won't be able to do much against a storm.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: mauricio on October 21, 2015, 02:41:13 AM
This logic of voting for the same old reptilian overlord you do not like just so the wrong one does not the get the throne is fucking disgusting. You are literally perpetuating the system that fucks you over . I simply vote for however I think is the best choice (which usually boils down to however opposes the reptilians) fuck everything else after that. Ultimately the people get what they deserve (and with that mindset it's obvious why they do) but I will not be giving them my approval by willfully voting for a disgusting reptile. Ultimately nothing much changes, regardless of who is at the helm he won't be able to do much against a storm.

It's not as simple as that. Often people vote against rather than for someone/something, as the choices available on the ballot are not there to vote for. So you end up choosing the lesser of two evils.

Jason Harvestdancer

But he is still right.  We have many people answering that they don't actually like Hillary, that they do like Bernie, but that they support Hillary who they don't like because of a perception that she'll beat someone else they don't like.  Either way you get someone you don't like.
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

Baruch

Bernie may be safe for now ... Joe Biden formally agreed not to run.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

mauricio

#38
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 21, 2015, 06:12:59 AM
It's not as simple as that. Often people vote against rather than for someone/something, as the choices available on the ballot are not there to vote for. So you end up choosing the lesser of two evils.

Yes i understand that, ultimately I try to do the same, but choosing the lesser of all evils not just those who are electable. But yes I understand the logic of voting for a candidate you do not like so the worse one does not the get the presidency, but that is exactly what I find disgraceful, because we then complain about the corporate lobbying, the corruption, the imperialism... when we basically already willfully consented to it by voting in favor of the same old political class. It's like we are trapped in this kafkatrap where you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. That's why i choose to vote without caring about the viability of the candidate, because it is an absurd system when the population political power is so neutered I rather be a dissenting voice, even if my vote is meaningless, just out of principle.

SGOS

Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on October 21, 2015, 08:39:43 AM
But he is still right.  We have many people answering that they don't actually like Hillary, that they do like Bernie, but that they support Hillary who they don't like because of a perception that she'll beat someone else they don't like.  Either way you get someone you don't like.

Hmmm, you could interpret this as people voting strategically to support the Democratic Party, rather than voting for better government.  The two party system, as designed by the two parties, will be alive and well into the foreseeable future.  A government for the people is still a long ways off.  Perhaps, not even possible.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: mauricio on October 21, 2015, 01:19:38 PM
Yes i understand that, ultimately I try to do the same, but choosing the lesser of all evils not just those who are electable. But yes I understand the logic of voting for a candidate you do not like so the worse one does not the get the presidency, but that is exactly what I find disgraceful, because we then complain about the corporate lobbying, the corruption, the imperialism... when we basically already willfully consented to it by voting in favor of the same old political class. It's like we are trapped in this kafkatrap where you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. That's why i choose to vote without caring about the viability of the candidate, because it is an absurd system when the population political power is so neutered I rather be a dissenting voice, even if my vote is meaningless, just out of principle.

About the only issue I'm concerned is having a Republican in the Oval office since several judges of the SCOTUS may retired due to old age. Other policies can be reversed, but with the wrong judge sitting for the next 20 -25 years, and as seen with Citizens United versus FEC, the damages can be very long lasting.

Hydra009

#41
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on October 21, 2015, 08:39:43 AM
But he is still right.  We have many people answering that they don't actually like Hillary, that they do like Bernie, but that they support Hillary who they don't like because of a perception that she'll beat someone else they don't like.  Either way you get someone you don't like.
Eh, there's a bit of a difference there in the magnitude of the dislike.  Hilary would undoubtedly enact liberal policies that, while not as desirable as Bernie's, would still be a step forward VS Trump policies that would be supremely undesirable.

Hydra009

Quote from: mauricio on October 21, 2015, 02:41:13 AM
This logic of voting for the same old reptilian overlord you do not like just so the wrong one does not the get the throne is fucking disgusting.
Please bear in mind that the candidate "you do not like" is somewhere in the 80s or 90s with most liberals here while the GOP candidate is typically in the 30s or less.

FaithIsFilth

Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on October 21, 2015, 12:35:50 AM
Considering how important foreign policy is to me, and how Obama's foreign policy has been Bush's foreign policy, and how Hillary's foreign policy is going to make Bush-Obama look lame, I cannot understand anyone saying "I like Obama so much that I love Hillary" without also saying "I like it when foreigners die."
That, plus Obama tore up the Constitution into even smaller pieces than Bush did by ramping up NSA spying, has done insane things like forcing a plane with a head of State on it to land so the US could search for Snowden, and the Police State has grown in a huge way under Obama. Militarization in a big way. I don't see how someone can call themselves a big fan of Obama and a liberal at the same time, but I'm not going to tell her what she is. Some would probably say I'm not liberal because I'm not for super strict gun control and banning a bunch of types of guns. People really get on that joker Trump for saying racist and bigoted things, but during his run for President, Obama used the strategy of pretending to be a bigot as well. He pretended to be anti-gay marriage to make sure homophobic blacks would vote for him. That's not any better than a conservative back in the day arguing against blacks and whites getting married to each other. Obama and Hillary are against guns though, so yay Hillary and Obama.

missingnocchi

Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2015, 12:43:55 PM
Bernie may be safe for now ... Joe Biden formally agreed not to run.
On the contrary, I think Biden sapping Clinton's voter pool was Sanders' only choice. All the polls show that without Biden, his would-be voters flock to Clinton.
What's a "Leppo?"