Democratic debates

[Hydra009]

Telling question and answer: How are you different from Obama?
Bernie:  Policy differences.
Three other guys: Policy differences.
Hillary: I'm a woman.

Yeah, that non-answer really didn't sit well with me.  Yes, we all know that Clinton as prez would be a historic first.  But that's not the reason why non-idiots vote for candidates.  IIRC, Obama never offered up being black as a reason to vote for him.

[Hydra009]

Another thing that kinda pissed me off in the debates:

COOPER: Governor Chafee, Edward Snowden, is he a traitor or a hero?

CHAFEE: No, I would bring him home. The courts have ruled that what he did -- what he did was say the American...

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Bring him home, no jail time?

CHAFEE: ... the American government was acting illegally. That's what the federal courts have said; what Snowden did showed that the American government was acting illegally for the Fourth Amendment. So I would bring him home.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, hero or traitor?

CLINTON: He broke the laws of the United States. He could have been a whistleblower. He could have gotten all of the protections of being a whistleblower. He could have raised all the issues that he has raised. And I think there would have been a positive response to that.

COOPER: Should he do jail time?

ClINTON: In addition -- in addition, he stole very important information that has unfortunately fallen into a lot of the wrong hands. So I don't think he should be brought home without facing the music.

COOPER: Governor O'Malley, Snowden?

(APPLAUSE)

O'MALLEY: Anderson, Snowden put a lot of Americans' lives at risk. Snowden broke the law. Whistleblowers do not run to Russia and try to get protection from Putin. If he really believes that, he should be back here.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, Edward Snowden?

SANDERS: I think Snowden played a very important role in educating the American people to the degree in which our civil liberties and our constitutional rights are being undermined.

COOPER: Is he a hero?

SANDERS: He did -- he did break the law, and I think there should be a penalty to that. But I think what he did in educating us should be taken into consideration before he is (inaudible).

COOPER: Senator Webb, Edward Snowden?

WEBB: I -- well, I -- I would leave his ultimate judgment to the legal system.  Here's what I do believe. We have a serious problem in terms of the collection of personal information in this country. And one of the things that I did during the FISA bill in 2007, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, was introduce with Russ Feingold two amendments basically saying, "We understand the realities of how you have to collect this broad information in the Internet age, but after a certain period of time, you need to destroy the personal information that you have if people have not been brought -- if criminal justice proceedings have not been brought against them."

We've got a vast data bank of information that is ripe for people with bad intentions to be able to use. And they need to be destroyed.

++ Chafee
+ Sanders
-- O'Malley
-- Clinton

[Poison Tree]

The viewer poll said Bernie won the debate by a large margin.  CNN therefore declared Hillary the winner.  Interesting.

The pundits say Clinton won, the focus groups say Sanders won, the polls say Clinton won

[SGOS]

if you think the democrats are not, specially someone like hillary, puppets of the big oligopoly of corporations you are deluded. A politician like hillary pisses on you while telling you it is raining that's the only nice thing she will do for you compared to a republican, who does the same for his own constituency.

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019

When you have bullshit like that the phrase conflict of interest is a complete understatement. Democracy is and will remain dead as long as huge sums of money are needed to be even have a minuscule chance of being elected. This circus is not meant to be taken seriously.

Personally, I think democracy was a fabulous idea.  Unfortunately, a fabulous idea can be corrupted, and democracy in the US has been.  Every society has greedy power mongers who want it all, ideally giving as little back as they can.  In totalitarian regimes, they just grab power and run the country.  In a democracy they have to use more subtle means.  They evolve to gain power depending on the environment of governance.  But they do control and get their way in the end.

[josephpalazzo]

Personally, I think democracy was a fabulous idea.  Unfortunately, a fabulous idea can be corrupted, and democracy in the US has been.  Every society has greedy power mongers who want it all, ideally giving as little back as they can.  In totalitarian regimes, they just grab power and run the country.  In a democracy they have to use more subtle means.  They evolve to gain power depending on the environment of governance.  But they do control and get their way in the end.

The initial idea behind the American constitution was to keep the different branches of government separate - executive, legislative, judiciary. It was an unwritten rule that the President would select judges to SCOTUS because of their proven legal expertise. That prevailed for quite a long time until the Reagan administration, and since then we have a SCOTUS drawn along partisan lines. The next president might be faced with new appointees (Ginsburg is  82 yrs old, Scalia and Kennedy 79). I shrug at the idea that a Republican might be sitting at the Oval office and appointing judges from the extreme right. The damages of a partisan SCOTUS can last for generations.

[SGOS]

The pundits say Clinton won, the focus groups say Sanders won, the polls say Clinton won

Clinton came across more confident and articulate and that carries a lot of weight in polls.  Sanders has more to offer progressives, but he lacked the charisma Hillary showed.  Win or lose?  It's about winning the primary of course.  Do people vote their conscience in primaries, or do they vote with an eye for the candidate most likely to knock off their opponent in the finals?  I have had people tell me why voting in the primaries is so important, but the reasons given are all over the map and often contradictory.

Hillary has a lot of baggage.  Maybe she deserves some of it, but probably not all of it.  Yet the baggage is there and if she is elected, the Republicans will ensure that the public is continually distracted by it.  She will be as hamstrung and helpless as Obama.  She will do a few favors for wealthy friends and donors, and Republicans will act like they object, but they won't actually prevent her from advancing the crony capitalism they want for themselves, but forget about seeing anything very progressive.  I don't think Sanders is electable in the general election.  I like the guy.  I like him a lot, but his election as president would be nothing short of a mysterious miracle.

[Mermaid]

I am still in the Clinton camp.

But did Webb say he killed a guy? WTF? He scared the piss out of me.

[Poison Tree]

But did Webb say he killed a guy? WTF? He scared the piss out of me.

He served with the Marines in Vietnam and received the Navy Cross,  the Silver Star, two Bronze Stars, and two Purple Hearts.

[SGOS]

I am still in the Clinton camp.

But did Webb say he killed a guy? WTF? He scared the piss out of me.

I don't think you have to worry about Webb.  Few in these debates come off as less presidential.  If he were in the marines actually doing what marines are supposed to do in battle, not killing someone would be a failure.  It's what they are supposed to do.  I could forgive that in a presidential candidate as long as he could prove himself capable of doing what a president is supposed to do leading the country.  They are two different jobs, with two different job descriptions.  But this is neither here nor there.  Webb just makes a poor impression.  I have no idea what possessed him to throw his hat in the ring.  He should not be allowed in the next debates, if only to save us all the embarrassment.  He was overshadowed by the weakest of the other candidates.

[Hydra009]

I am still in the Clinton camp.

But did Webb say he killed a guy? WTF? He scared the piss out of me.

Yeah, that would've played a little better with a Republican crowd.  In fairness to him, the question was kinda stupid.  "Who are you most proud to have as an enemy?"  'Well, gee, maybe the guy who lobbed a grenade at me.  The rest of you get nasty letters from the NRA.  Oh boo hoo.'

And speaking about the NRA, I thought it was stupid how much they boasted about the NRA disliking them.  <sarcasm> You're disliked by the gun lobby.  Wow, that must've been hard to accomplish.  </sarcasm>

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Is there any reason beyond "well, I think that she can beat the Republican" to support Hillary?  As in policy reasons that make her better than Bernie or the unknown 3?

[Hydra009]

Is there any reason beyond "well, I think that she can beat the Republican" to support Hillary?  As in policy reasons that make her better than Bernie or the unknown 3?

Not that I'm aware of.  And to be perfectly honest, I'm not thrilled with a lot of her voting history.  She voted in favor of the Iraq Resolution, now she's against that war.  She was for the Cuba embargo, now she's for lifting it.  She was against gay marriage, now she's for it.  And there's some stuff, that while I'm sure was well-intentioned, kinda bombed.  And she's not exactly wowing me over with stuff like this, either.

I'd support her over Trump in a heartbeat, but I'd vote for a dead dog over Trump.

[SGOS]

Is there any reason beyond "well, I think that she can beat the Republican" to support Hillary? 

For me, no.  I can't think of a good reason beyond that.

As in policy reasons that make her better than Bernie or the unknown 3?

Bernie is a people's candidate.  Hillary is more of a traditional good ole boy.  The others are included in the race as filler.

[Mermaid]

Sanders says all the right things. I am just not familiar enough with him to trust that he can deliver. I think this is what it boils down to. It is not easy to distinguish Clinton from Obama, and I am a very big fan of Obama, especially now, entering his lame duck year.

I am planning to watch carefully and keep my mind open, my choice will likely shake out of the pack in the next 6 or so months. But meanwhile, it's Clinton.

[TomFoolery]

Sanders says all the right things. I am just not familiar enough with him to trust that he can deliver. I think this is what it boils down to. It is not easy to distinguish Clinton from Obama, and I am a very big fan of Obama, especially now, entering his lame duck year.

I imagine if Bernie is elected he runs a huge risk of going the way of Obama in ending up with a split Congress or entirely Republican-controlled Congress and not being able to fulfill anything on his platform.

People keep saying Obama lied: well, things change and sometimes things are beyond one's control. I've never understood this need for politicians to stay the same. I'm not the same person I was 8 or even 4 years ago either.